While there definitely are groups, everyone interacts with eachother on the chat.
If you don't feel like you're part of the closeknit people everyone's saying we have, then the chat will easily welcome you in.
The Condition of the Forum
Re: The Condition of the Forum
by Raz » April 6th, 2014, 5:15 pm
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better
Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
by WickedOreo » April 6th, 2014, 5:52 pm
I'd rather not integrate myself into a large group. I am more for serious and interpersonal friendships with individual people. Hence why Darth and I got along so well in the first place. I don't expect everyone to talk about the stuff he and I talk about, so I avoid groups. I tend to become depressed from a lack of energy while being in them, so I only join on occasion. However, that shouldn't be a reason why my ideals are invalid.
I am a woman of structure and continuity, and it shouldn't come as a surprise to you all. I was once diagnosed on the autism spectrum, and I firmly believe in some of the tendencies that I have that reflect this diagnosis, despite its invalidity after the introduction of the DSM-V. I see my world in a "what can I do to benefit from this" way, even if the idea isn't rather to profit but to improve it from its current status without rewards. If I fix it, I feel better.
Nan, as mentioned, I'm a very introverted person, and wouldn't mind talking to you one-on-one, Skype or Steam, if you have it. I've seen you as a standalone person, and that would make it much easier to converse with you.
Brando, I am fully aware that I don't and won't get along with all of the members of Runouw. I'm not some person who lives under a rock and sits and cries about it, or wonders what she can do to fix it. I know of all the ways I can do to make friends and whatnot, but I refuse. I'm not going to conform to the whim of an already existing entity just to gain acceptance into a group. I will be myself through and through, and I won't change.
No, what I ask is for an improvement on what is what we call Runouw. I don't expect everything to be tailored exactly the way I want it. I would rather see what's already here flourish into something malleable, that can be manipulated in order to become a better system. A good example would be our government, disregarding the corrupt politicians for a moment. Before the Bill of Rights, the government had much more power and was pretty much abusing it, causing the American citizen to riot or attack one another because of unfair laws and such. Afterward, we were much more happy with the democracy we had developed.
Not that this is exactly what is happening her, but rather, something much more passive in the sense where there are the die hard people who accept the rules and everything as it and will do anything to defend them, but when there is a new person who wishes to do something to change it for whatever reason, they get pretty much stuffed in a crate and disregarded. If you want to stay the same, expect little to no new users. However, if you constantly change everything little by little, you start attracting new people, and those new people will form their own little groups, instead of one dominant one...
What I'm trying to say is that one power cannot rule over them all. This isn't The Lord of the Rings. We all must have 'checks to our powers', and unfortunately, that requires some change to move us forward, even if it's slowly. Once that happens, others will jump on the bandwagon and will form little groups like yours and come up with their own interests and such, and perhaps will find friends in other groups much easier...
I am a woman of structure and continuity, and it shouldn't come as a surprise to you all. I was once diagnosed on the autism spectrum, and I firmly believe in some of the tendencies that I have that reflect this diagnosis, despite its invalidity after the introduction of the DSM-V. I see my world in a "what can I do to benefit from this" way, even if the idea isn't rather to profit but to improve it from its current status without rewards. If I fix it, I feel better.
Nan, as mentioned, I'm a very introverted person, and wouldn't mind talking to you one-on-one, Skype or Steam, if you have it. I've seen you as a standalone person, and that would make it much easier to converse with you.
Brando, I am fully aware that I don't and won't get along with all of the members of Runouw. I'm not some person who lives under a rock and sits and cries about it, or wonders what she can do to fix it. I know of all the ways I can do to make friends and whatnot, but I refuse. I'm not going to conform to the whim of an already existing entity just to gain acceptance into a group. I will be myself through and through, and I won't change.
No, what I ask is for an improvement on what is what we call Runouw. I don't expect everything to be tailored exactly the way I want it. I would rather see what's already here flourish into something malleable, that can be manipulated in order to become a better system. A good example would be our government, disregarding the corrupt politicians for a moment. Before the Bill of Rights, the government had much more power and was pretty much abusing it, causing the American citizen to riot or attack one another because of unfair laws and such. Afterward, we were much more happy with the democracy we had developed.
Not that this is exactly what is happening her, but rather, something much more passive in the sense where there are the die hard people who accept the rules and everything as it and will do anything to defend them, but when there is a new person who wishes to do something to change it for whatever reason, they get pretty much stuffed in a crate and disregarded. If you want to stay the same, expect little to no new users. However, if you constantly change everything little by little, you start attracting new people, and those new people will form their own little groups, instead of one dominant one...
What I'm trying to say is that one power cannot rule over them all. This isn't The Lord of the Rings. We all must have 'checks to our powers', and unfortunately, that requires some change to move us forward, even if it's slowly. Once that happens, others will jump on the bandwagon and will form little groups like yours and come up with their own interests and such, and perhaps will find friends in other groups much easier...
<--Instagram // Steam -->
<--DeviantArt // Facebook -->
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
by NanTheDark » April 7th, 2014, 4:10 am
WickedOreo wrote:Nan, as mentioned, I'm a very introverted person, and wouldn't mind talking to you one-on-one, Skype or Steam, if you have it. I've seen you as a standalone person, and that would make it much easier to converse with you.
Ok.
I'm PMing you some contact info.KevinOC wrote:or you could, like, leave
...no comment.
Saying "no comment" can often say more than actually commenting. Something I've noticed.
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
Thumbs up x1 
by MessengerOfDreams » April 7th, 2014, 11:21 am
Awhile back, possibly a year from now, a serious conversation was started about the inclusiveness of the forums. People who were newer were seen as mistreated, the communication between staff and non-staff was brought into question, and certain events were seen as deliberately disadvantaging new members.
Those conditions were worked on. More rules were set into place and many impacting conversations were had about interacting with new members. User Representatives, put in place by yours truly in 2010, were given more power to interact with members and give them more of a voice. Longstanding events like Runouw Votes were cancelled so that new members did not feel bad about themselves. These came with sacrifices that many people had to make, but legitimate progress was made.
However, inclusion is not a one-way street. When you come into this forum, you are inheriting the focus of the forum, the dynamics, the in-jokes, the topics of discussion, the rituals, and the members. We try our best to make these clear to the people, but ultimately it is up to them to decide what they want to do here, if they want to stay, and if they want to get involved. Which leads to my ultimate point: members must put in effort to be included. We cannot drag them into every LDC or chatroom and make them talk; they must decide to do that. We can't give them personal lessons about the past; while the timeline is in place as well as many explanatory pages and historical archives, it's up to them to utilize those resources.
And ultimately, this forum is not going to appeal to people who don't like the subject matters. I do not know how to cook, so I am not registered for allrecipes.com. Therefore, if you're not into these flash games, gaming in general, or the people who have made their place here, there are no hard feelings whatsoever if you decide this is not the place for you. That is your right as an online patron of this website.
I think your flaw in logic here is that you expect more out of us than possible to cater to every individual member exclusively in their own regard. That simply is not possible by humanity solely because each individual is unique, and we cannot create a ruleset for them all, a forum for them all, or anything of the sort. They may try and bring their interests into the forum (as I've tried to do with my favorite TV show Survivor), but they shouldn't be offended if it hasn't panned out into something larger if that's what the forum decides. Every citizen has their own interests and rights, and sometimes they don't correlate.
I hope you're able to take this into consideration that we are not being noninclusive just because of our focus being different from yours, or the fact that we are not all-encompassing.
And our mods are doing a perfectly good job, thank you very much.
~MoD
P.S. We are still getting a very steady flow of new members that actually do get involved, or older ones that have made a resurgence. 2013 saw the inclusion of well-respected members like Yurimaster, endlessjourney, darthbrowser, 1018peter, and yourself.
Those conditions were worked on. More rules were set into place and many impacting conversations were had about interacting with new members. User Representatives, put in place by yours truly in 2010, were given more power to interact with members and give them more of a voice. Longstanding events like Runouw Votes were cancelled so that new members did not feel bad about themselves. These came with sacrifices that many people had to make, but legitimate progress was made.
However, inclusion is not a one-way street. When you come into this forum, you are inheriting the focus of the forum, the dynamics, the in-jokes, the topics of discussion, the rituals, and the members. We try our best to make these clear to the people, but ultimately it is up to them to decide what they want to do here, if they want to stay, and if they want to get involved. Which leads to my ultimate point: members must put in effort to be included. We cannot drag them into every LDC or chatroom and make them talk; they must decide to do that. We can't give them personal lessons about the past; while the timeline is in place as well as many explanatory pages and historical archives, it's up to them to utilize those resources.
And ultimately, this forum is not going to appeal to people who don't like the subject matters. I do not know how to cook, so I am not registered for allrecipes.com. Therefore, if you're not into these flash games, gaming in general, or the people who have made their place here, there are no hard feelings whatsoever if you decide this is not the place for you. That is your right as an online patron of this website.
I think your flaw in logic here is that you expect more out of us than possible to cater to every individual member exclusively in their own regard. That simply is not possible by humanity solely because each individual is unique, and we cannot create a ruleset for them all, a forum for them all, or anything of the sort. They may try and bring their interests into the forum (as I've tried to do with my favorite TV show Survivor), but they shouldn't be offended if it hasn't panned out into something larger if that's what the forum decides. Every citizen has their own interests and rights, and sometimes they don't correlate.
I hope you're able to take this into consideration that we are not being noninclusive just because of our focus being different from yours, or the fact that we are not all-encompassing.
And our mods are doing a perfectly good job, thank you very much.
~MoD
P.S. We are still getting a very steady flow of new members that actually do get involved, or older ones that have made a resurgence. 2013 saw the inclusion of well-respected members like Yurimaster, endlessjourney, darthbrowser, 1018peter, and yourself.
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MessengerOfDreams - Moderator
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
by Raz » April 7th, 2014, 11:24 am
Just gonna say that I don't think we ever excluded new users on the forum. We have always tried to include the new users but they never reach out to us
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better
Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
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Raz - "quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
Thumbs up x1
by SuYo1141 » April 7th, 2014, 7:52 pm
In general, I agree and disagree with the statements brought to the table.
I will agree that change is slow here. I'll readily admit that I had and still have problems with this, especially concerning the information in the user base. There have been many ideas in Forum 23 that have gained support from many people, but were never implemented. However, rest assured, we're working on a solution as we speak, and we're working to make ourselves more productive and efficient as time rolls by.
I do not agree, however, with your statement that moderation is nonexistent. I had the same worries as you when I was a user, but when I saw what goes on in F23, I realized that changing a forum filled with hundreds of people isn't as easy as you make it out to be, and that the moderators have much more problems on their plate than one might initially perceive. One can not simply overhaul a site page or mass prune users or make things "more inviting to newcomers". The sensitivity and opinions of each and every user must be taken into consideration before we can reach a conclusion, as cutting corners with users can lead to very controversial results.
I will agree that change is slow here. I'll readily admit that I had and still have problems with this, especially concerning the information in the user base. There have been many ideas in Forum 23 that have gained support from many people, but were never implemented. However, rest assured, we're working on a solution as we speak, and we're working to make ourselves more productive and efficient as time rolls by.
I do not agree, however, with your statement that moderation is nonexistent. I had the same worries as you when I was a user, but when I saw what goes on in F23, I realized that changing a forum filled with hundreds of people isn't as easy as you make it out to be, and that the moderators have much more problems on their plate than one might initially perceive. One can not simply overhaul a site page or mass prune users or make things "more inviting to newcomers". The sensitivity and opinions of each and every user must be taken into consideration before we can reach a conclusion, as cutting corners with users can lead to very controversial results.
I'm SuYo the faker, I rant in Forum 23 so you don't have to.
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
Thumbs up x6
by UsuarioTHf » April 7th, 2014, 10:30 pm
Raz wrote:Just gonna say that I don't think we ever excluded new users on the forum. We have always tried to include the new users but they never reach out to us
I feel like this is important.
Personally, I find it really difficult to become friends with someone I'm interacting with leaving messages on a public forum, since I feel I'm just part of a 'discussion', and that's it. Maybe I'll find that person again in another topic while discussing something else, but I don't think I can call him/her a 'friend'.
That's what the chat is for.
It's a place where you can have a casual conversation with whoever seems interesting without having to wait like half an hour for a reply. It's a place where you can meet new people and a place where you learn about a stranger's life. It's a place where you can talk about the newest Nintendo game while others talk about a new anime episode and then someone suggests a TF2 match then everyone gets hyped up while the rest keep discussing whatever the hell they want. It's a place where you can make friends without downloading any external programs to make it work.
So a chat is important. At least to me it is.
If we really want our new members to reach out to us, we need a viable method of communication where it doesn't take around half an hour to get a reply. That's what the chat is for, isn't it?
Let's look at our in-site chat. Yes, 'in-site' is important, not everyone will go to download mIRC to join a chat from a small community they just joined.
Our chat is implemented into the site. It's got channels and everything. However, most of the time it doesn't load for some reason and it's been like that for a fairly long time. And for some reason, the chat is exclusive to FoA members even though we haven't updated the chat or fixed it in a very long time.
We can't expect people to be interested in us if we've got nothing interesting to show. Without a chat, people won't be interested on staying with us because they will not find a place where they can easily share their thoughts.
Leaving that aside, I don't feel like we've become a closed community. It feels like there's not many new users interested on interacting with us (and it's true, but that's an issue for another topic) which in turn leads to that impression of being a closed community. There's not much variety on our hobbies and interests (casual gaming, indie gaming, anime, etc.) so it's possible it might be difficult for people to fit in, and that's why it would be helpful to have more people joining us since that variety would help people fit in.
I feel kind of useless with this purple color on my name. User Reps don't get to do much, especially since there aren't any new members to help out.
Made by Emelia K. Fletcher an eternity ago.
Heroes never die.
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
by Raz » April 8th, 2014, 9:01 am
YES. There's a reason why I'm on the chat almost 24/7.
It's also why I pushed so hard for an on site chat, which atm is only for FoA members.
It's also why I pushed so hard for an on site chat, which atm is only for FoA members.
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better
Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
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Raz - "quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz
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Re: The Condition of the Forum
Thumbs up x6
by Doram » April 9th, 2014, 11:13 am
Crud. I've been busy, and this thread came close to needing the old Flame Wars Fire TruckTM. Sorry, I didn't know that you started a whole new thread, Dr. Oreo. I'm acting as both a user speaking to moderators, and as a moderator speaking to users here.
Ok, points being made:
A) It seems like no progress ever gets made on the site.
Yes, There has been much talk about improvements to the site, and in all honesty, I have seen plenty of improvement in that area. For one thing, people complained that the discussion on site improvements was too private, and as a result there has been hardly any talk of it in F23 for almost 6 months now, and everything has instead been brought up here in Site Discussion. Improvement done. That's not all there is to this discussion, though.
There are a few things to keep in mind here.
1) Many improvements to the site include coding new stuff. This means creating new pieces of code, from scratch, and not only making them do what we want, but also making them not break anything else we already have here. That can be INCREDIBLY difficult.
2) We also have to make sure that it is something that the majority of the group can agree on, which isn't always the case. In what I have seen, this may be a process issue that can be made better. I have a couple of suggestions to help with that:
...and, while I'm at it...
3) Life happens. We all have to deal with it, and many of us, especially as we approach adulthood, see our free time dwindle to depressingly small sections, depending on our circumstances. All of the current staff are in that fluctuating time in their lives, and unfortunately, the factors that make them good moderators (their maturity), means that they are also at a time in their life where the demands on their abilities increase dramatically from ALL directions. I see that as an unsolvable issue, unfortunately. It's just he nature of the beast. You need grown-ups to do this stuff, but grown-ups tend to have little time for play or "extra-curricular" activities. My time gets VERY limited from time to time, for example, but I love this community, and I have helpful skills, and I put in all the time I can. Most others are the same.
B) It doesn't seem like the moderators do much.
I absolutely agree with the statement that the moderators ARE doing their job, and you don't see it because it's so quiet around here - AKA they are doing their jobs AMAZINGLY well. They take care of this stuff so you don't have to, because they understand what is going on, and how to take care of it, and all the normal members can come on, and just focus on having fun. Please take it from someone who has been a UR for a long time and witnessed this in action a lot. They are absolutely doing their jobs as best they can, otherwise they step down. Easy as that. Also, as we have gotten better at defining and expressing what we consider good behavior, the general amount of bad behavior has gone down. This is a success too.
Let me also speak from a website administrator perspective: Spambots are serious business. And furthermore, there may not be a lot of activity right now, but when the site was busy, we attracted a lot of general internet attention, and with that came the spambots, hackers, and other threats appropriate for traffic of that size, and since the Internet is forever, once you open that spigot, it NEVER closes. That level of onslaught has continued to this day, even as the regular traffic has died down. That level of threat requires attention from the moderators, and they have gotten VERY good at that job.
So, yes, we appreciate the compliment that we are doing so good a job, that it seems like we aren't doing anything at all.
C) It's hard for newbies to break in or get comfortable / We seem too close-minded and close-grouped / Nobody listens to my ideas
Well, those are all related, but let's take that one part at a time:
1) It's too hard for newbies to break in or get comfortable.
Ok. There's something to that. It's something I've been aware of for a while, and have said as much, but haven't quite known what to do about it. I agree that there are limited topics that we discuss here, as no place can really cover everything, and people who want to get involved simply need to join in on the established topics or go to the spots where we suggest additions and make the appropriate comments there. I have had an idea while working on all of this, though:
I also agree that this is a perfect spot for URs to showcase their abilities as guides and ambassadors, in both directions. But we do need more discussion on how exactly to arrange for that to happen. We need to define more processes as to how we can easily and effectively accomplish our goals. Also, the users have to take this up themselves. I also agree that we can make all the structure in the world to welcome and aid the new user, but if they don't put in at least minimal effort to use it, we cannot be blamed for that. All we can do is continue to take suggestions and improve the process as much as we can.
2) We seem too close-minded and close-grouped.
Well...... Ultimately, yes, there is a bit of that going on, but it is also COMPLETELY normal for people who have known and associated with each other for a long time (and once you can measure it in years, it's a long time). There's a certain level of inside jokes and other community specific history that will naturally build up in any group, and that will always be a barrier for new entrants. This is actually why I thought the wiki was a great idea. Want to know what we are talking about -> read the story on the wiki that explains it all. That goes for ♥♥♥♥ as much as SM63. It is one of the many ways that the wiki can be a good companion for the site.
Also, ever since mankind invented agriculture, we've been striving to increase the stability in our lives, so please forgive the fact that the instinct to resist change is both widespread and common. On the other hand, more important than that is the fact that our ability to change and adapt to new environments is one of our major successes as a species. So, we can change. We just need to see the benefit, and want to do it. In other words, people usually need some convincing to take on change.
Finally, yes, there is some room for improvement, even though I don't think we are really all that grumpy for the most part. I've made some suggestions here, and we can continue to work on this, though.
3) Nobody listens to my ideas
Well, the flip side of this is: Nobody likes to be criticized. Yes, there is some jumping-down-throats going on here, but a lot of it is either coming from people trying to defend the forum they love, or just flinching from a perceived attack. It's basic miscommunication at it's worst, and simply something that will always have to be fought at the individual level. Newbies will always have problems expressing themselves reasonably until they mature a bit, and oldbies will always have to stop themselves and think for a second whenever someone suggests something new or different. We can manage that a bit with our rules for conduct, but there will always be that initial blunder as the newbie violates a rule they haven't heard of before, or an oldbie is shocked out of comfortable normalcy with fresh faces. Also see everything I have said thus far in this post.
So, yes, I think Oreo has done us a great service by stepping up and telling us what she is seeing. It is always good to see what a new user sees, especially for those who care to make the site a nice place for everybody. Every mistake, misjudging, and misunderstanding, is useful in that it shows what is and is not visible to the casual observer, and that is instructive in and of itself. We listen, and we change. It isn't always visible, and it doesn't always work, but we are all human. As long as we are all committed to improving this place, we can solve any problem we face.
I'm good at crystallizing information and organizing it for effective communication. I hope this helped.
Nobody does Wall of Text like me... 
Ok, points being made:
A) It seems like no progress ever gets made on the site.
Yes, There has been much talk about improvements to the site, and in all honesty, I have seen plenty of improvement in that area. For one thing, people complained that the discussion on site improvements was too private, and as a result there has been hardly any talk of it in F23 for almost 6 months now, and everything has instead been brought up here in Site Discussion. Improvement done. That's not all there is to this discussion, though.
There are a few things to keep in mind here.
1) Many improvements to the site include coding new stuff. This means creating new pieces of code, from scratch, and not only making them do what we want, but also making them not break anything else we already have here. That can be INCREDIBLY difficult.
2) We also have to make sure that it is something that the majority of the group can agree on, which isn't always the case. In what I have seen, this may be a process issue that can be made better. I have a couple of suggestions to help with that:
| i | First off, let's use some of the existing BBCode we have to help with the process. We have this lovely INFO tag I am using here, let's use it to highlight ideas when we suggest them. Easy to see, Easy to find when scanning a thread. Easy to cut and paste when doing other things like my next suggestion... |
| i | On all our lovely, "What should we do threads", start them as we have, but a week or two in, take all the suggestions from the thread and then make a poll out of it so that we can all get together and say, "I vote for that to actually be done". Make sure to put a "We need more suggestions" as the last option, and bam. We have a process for that. |
...and, while I'm at it...
| i | Someone who has access to the ACP please go in and fix the info tag, because this is unreadable without using the color tag. Yes, I will also post something in Forum Bugs. |
3) Life happens. We all have to deal with it, and many of us, especially as we approach adulthood, see our free time dwindle to depressingly small sections, depending on our circumstances. All of the current staff are in that fluctuating time in their lives, and unfortunately, the factors that make them good moderators (their maturity), means that they are also at a time in their life where the demands on their abilities increase dramatically from ALL directions. I see that as an unsolvable issue, unfortunately. It's just he nature of the beast. You need grown-ups to do this stuff, but grown-ups tend to have little time for play or "extra-curricular" activities. My time gets VERY limited from time to time, for example, but I love this community, and I have helpful skills, and I put in all the time I can. Most others are the same.
B) It doesn't seem like the moderators do much.
I absolutely agree with the statement that the moderators ARE doing their job, and you don't see it because it's so quiet around here - AKA they are doing their jobs AMAZINGLY well. They take care of this stuff so you don't have to, because they understand what is going on, and how to take care of it, and all the normal members can come on, and just focus on having fun. Please take it from someone who has been a UR for a long time and witnessed this in action a lot. They are absolutely doing their jobs as best they can, otherwise they step down. Easy as that. Also, as we have gotten better at defining and expressing what we consider good behavior, the general amount of bad behavior has gone down. This is a success too.
Let me also speak from a website administrator perspective: Spambots are serious business. And furthermore, there may not be a lot of activity right now, but when the site was busy, we attracted a lot of general internet attention, and with that came the spambots, hackers, and other threats appropriate for traffic of that size, and since the Internet is forever, once you open that spigot, it NEVER closes. That level of onslaught has continued to this day, even as the regular traffic has died down. That level of threat requires attention from the moderators, and they have gotten VERY good at that job.
So, yes, we appreciate the compliment that we are doing so good a job, that it seems like we aren't doing anything at all.
C) It's hard for newbies to break in or get comfortable / We seem too close-minded and close-grouped / Nobody listens to my ideas
Well, those are all related, but let's take that one part at a time:
1) It's too hard for newbies to break in or get comfortable.
Ok. There's something to that. It's something I've been aware of for a while, and have said as much, but haven't quite known what to do about it. I agree that there are limited topics that we discuss here, as no place can really cover everything, and people who want to get involved simply need to join in on the established topics or go to the spots where we suggest additions and make the appropriate comments there. I have had an idea while working on all of this, though:
| i | Make a map of the site for newbies in the welcome forum (and have a mod sticky it). Links to all of the relevant sub-forums, with longer descriptions than the main navigation allows. Show them everything we have in one easy glance. Bam! Everyone can find a niche to fit into. |
I also agree that this is a perfect spot for URs to showcase their abilities as guides and ambassadors, in both directions. But we do need more discussion on how exactly to arrange for that to happen. We need to define more processes as to how we can easily and effectively accomplish our goals. Also, the users have to take this up themselves. I also agree that we can make all the structure in the world to welcome and aid the new user, but if they don't put in at least minimal effort to use it, we cannot be blamed for that. All we can do is continue to take suggestions and improve the process as much as we can.
2) We seem too close-minded and close-grouped.
Well...... Ultimately, yes, there is a bit of that going on, but it is also COMPLETELY normal for people who have known and associated with each other for a long time (and once you can measure it in years, it's a long time). There's a certain level of inside jokes and other community specific history that will naturally build up in any group, and that will always be a barrier for new entrants. This is actually why I thought the wiki was a great idea. Want to know what we are talking about -> read the story on the wiki that explains it all. That goes for ♥♥♥♥ as much as SM63. It is one of the many ways that the wiki can be a good companion for the site.
Also, ever since mankind invented agriculture, we've been striving to increase the stability in our lives, so please forgive the fact that the instinct to resist change is both widespread and common. On the other hand, more important than that is the fact that our ability to change and adapt to new environments is one of our major successes as a species. So, we can change. We just need to see the benefit, and want to do it. In other words, people usually need some convincing to take on change.
Finally, yes, there is some room for improvement, even though I don't think we are really all that grumpy for the most part. I've made some suggestions here, and we can continue to work on this, though.
3) Nobody listens to my ideas
Well, the flip side of this is: Nobody likes to be criticized. Yes, there is some jumping-down-throats going on here, but a lot of it is either coming from people trying to defend the forum they love, or just flinching from a perceived attack. It's basic miscommunication at it's worst, and simply something that will always have to be fought at the individual level. Newbies will always have problems expressing themselves reasonably until they mature a bit, and oldbies will always have to stop themselves and think for a second whenever someone suggests something new or different. We can manage that a bit with our rules for conduct, but there will always be that initial blunder as the newbie violates a rule they haven't heard of before, or an oldbie is shocked out of comfortable normalcy with fresh faces. Also see everything I have said thus far in this post.
So, yes, I think Oreo has done us a great service by stepping up and telling us what she is seeing. It is always good to see what a new user sees, especially for those who care to make the site a nice place for everybody. Every mistake, misjudging, and misunderstanding, is useful in that it shows what is and is not visible to the casual observer, and that is instructive in and of itself. We listen, and we change. It isn't always visible, and it doesn't always work, but we are all human. As long as we are all committed to improving this place, we can solve any problem we face.
I'm good at crystallizing information and organizing it for effective communication. I hope this helped.
Nobody does Wall of Text like me... Martin Luther King Jr. wrote:Man must evolve, for all human conflict, a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation.
The foundation of such a method is love.
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Doram - Global Moderator
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