Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
Thumbs up x1 
by SuYo1141 » May 25th, 2013, 6:29 pm
Okay, as the title states, there has been a rather touchy subject being gossiped about amongst several regular users, mainly Raz and I. We'd like an opinion concerning the fact that this forum is run almost entirely by moderators, leaving users with little or no opinion despite the User Representatives.
So here's what's been going on.
First off, talks has already arisen as far back as March concerning the miniscule amount of power User Representatives had, despite their ability to represent the entire userbase, which easily makes up the vast majority of the site's traffic as well as opinions. The ability to apply for moderation positions is also incredibly closed-ended, as if one wants to apply for a moderation position, they have to be on good terms with the moderators themselves, which means that the userbase has absolutely no power to put into power who the users feel would make a good moderator. It's strictly controlled by the moderators. Even when one does apply, they are (from my experience) usually swatted away with excuses such as "now isn't a good time to apply." The problem with that statement is that 8 user reperesentatives and a small group of moderators cannot dictate and control a userbase consisting of thousands of unique people unless the users or their representatives are given more power to influence changes to the forum. After all, they are the ones who make up the vast majority of the forums. Can't they be given a chance?
These concerns were escalated a few weeks ago when a forum rehaul was executed...completely under the nose of the userbase. This behavior is honestly very disheartening, because if the moderators are easily able to execute things like a forum rehaul without a general consensus, that doesn't seem fair at all towards the users. The moderators have, at times, outright gone against the consensus of the userbase and made a different decision, such as opting for a 24th SM63 level designer contest, instead of ushering in a hyped LL level designer contest. Hell, a lot of users don't even know that secret forums like F23 and F41 even exist, and those who do know about them have no power to influence what goes on in there, because it's completely moderators-only, which makes no sense. User Representatives are possibly allowed in F23, but what's the point of representing the userbase if there are only mods in the forum anyway? Examples of this behavior are abundant. A lot of users have noted that I might make a good User Representative, and my opinion has generally been agreed upon by a lot of people. However, when I apply, the moderators formed a different opinion, and their consensus over-rides the users, leading to a failed campaign for my becoming of a User Representative. Like I said earlier, the user representative group in general (not to mention that there are only 8 of them) is not given enough power to represent the users they all once were.
Changes in opinion from the users to the moderators, and the highly shut-in fashion of the secret forums and moderator/administrator operations, have created a large credibility gap that is growing worryingly larger. Even honorary members, who deserve and have had their opinions known, have been shoved back in with the users. MessengerOfDreams, the most revolutionary member and former global moderator on the site, is now a regular user. To the unknowing user, he's just another guy. Color makes a large difference, to be honest.
If we want to change this forum for the better, this issue needs to be sorted out. We, the users, want more power to influence the changes made to the site. I understand this argument might seem immature, but the userbase thinks this is a general issue, myself included. We make up the majority of the site, and we want to have our opinions make an impact on this site, for what not only the moderators, but we feel is right.
So here's what's been going on.
First off, talks has already arisen as far back as March concerning the miniscule amount of power User Representatives had, despite their ability to represent the entire userbase, which easily makes up the vast majority of the site's traffic as well as opinions. The ability to apply for moderation positions is also incredibly closed-ended, as if one wants to apply for a moderation position, they have to be on good terms with the moderators themselves, which means that the userbase has absolutely no power to put into power who the users feel would make a good moderator. It's strictly controlled by the moderators. Even when one does apply, they are (from my experience) usually swatted away with excuses such as "now isn't a good time to apply." The problem with that statement is that 8 user reperesentatives and a small group of moderators cannot dictate and control a userbase consisting of thousands of unique people unless the users or their representatives are given more power to influence changes to the forum. After all, they are the ones who make up the vast majority of the forums. Can't they be given a chance?
These concerns were escalated a few weeks ago when a forum rehaul was executed...completely under the nose of the userbase. This behavior is honestly very disheartening, because if the moderators are easily able to execute things like a forum rehaul without a general consensus, that doesn't seem fair at all towards the users. The moderators have, at times, outright gone against the consensus of the userbase and made a different decision, such as opting for a 24th SM63 level designer contest, instead of ushering in a hyped LL level designer contest. Hell, a lot of users don't even know that secret forums like F23 and F41 even exist, and those who do know about them have no power to influence what goes on in there, because it's completely moderators-only, which makes no sense. User Representatives are possibly allowed in F23, but what's the point of representing the userbase if there are only mods in the forum anyway? Examples of this behavior are abundant. A lot of users have noted that I might make a good User Representative, and my opinion has generally been agreed upon by a lot of people. However, when I apply, the moderators formed a different opinion, and their consensus over-rides the users, leading to a failed campaign for my becoming of a User Representative. Like I said earlier, the user representative group in general (not to mention that there are only 8 of them) is not given enough power to represent the users they all once were.
Changes in opinion from the users to the moderators, and the highly shut-in fashion of the secret forums and moderator/administrator operations, have created a large credibility gap that is growing worryingly larger. Even honorary members, who deserve and have had their opinions known, have been shoved back in with the users. MessengerOfDreams, the most revolutionary member and former global moderator on the site, is now a regular user. To the unknowing user, he's just another guy. Color makes a large difference, to be honest.
If we want to change this forum for the better, this issue needs to be sorted out. We, the users, want more power to influence the changes made to the site. I understand this argument might seem immature, but the userbase thinks this is a general issue, myself included. We make up the majority of the site, and we want to have our opinions make an impact on this site, for what not only the moderators, but we feel is right.
Last edited by SuYo1141 on May 25th, 2013, 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm SuYo the faker, I rant in Forum 23 so you don't have to.
-
SuYo1141 - Honorary Member
- Posts: 694
- Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 6:41 pm
- Location: Amidst miles and miles of cornfields.
Runouw Votes Winner - Thumbs Up given: 80 times
- Thumbs Up received: 72 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
Thumbs up x1
by Raz » May 25th, 2013, 6:41 pm
SuYo's post summed up a lot of what I wanted to say, and honestly, I forgot what else I wanted to say. But I want to point out that this is serious discussion and this thread isn't meant to be taken as a joke.
I'd also like to point out that although I joke around, I'm not as much how I was a year ago, I'm not as much the guy who's annoying and and is generally a douche, and I'd really like my reputation to change and not be like that.
(I do admit when i'm hungry I'm a douche though)
I'd also like to point out that although I joke around, I'm not as much how I was a year ago, I'm not as much the guy who's annoying and and is generally a douche, and I'd really like my reputation to change and not be like that.
(I do admit when i'm hungry I'm a douche though)
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better
Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
-
Raz - "quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz
Error contacting Twitter - Posts: 4432
- Joined: July 12th, 2010, 5:48 pm
- Location: :-)
Razzian Fighter - Thumbs Up given: 40 times
- Thumbs Up received: 367 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
Thumbs up x2
by Venexis » May 25th, 2013, 6:43 pm
Speaking as a UR, I feel like our powers are fine. Yes, we could definitely do with a better "framework" or chain of command, but this is already being implemented with the rules rewrite. We don't need more advanced powers, that would be chaotic with so many of us running around, what we need is a more involved role.
Secondly, the mods are the people who know what needs to be done to keep the site running. If the userbase feels like Candidate X would make a great staff member, that is usually communicated to the mods due to the size of our community, but ultimately the userbase has only a very general idea of what goes on in the inner power circles. The mods, I feel, have final say because they know who will be able to handle their responsibilities the best.
Not letting the rest of the forums know that we were doing a rules rewrite though, yes, that was total ♥♥♥♥. Some things have a reason to be hidden from the eye of the public (and rightly so, there are a few topics that would be highly controversial if released) but most of them are things like the rule rewrite. Things that affect us all, and should therefore be told to everyone. Hiding it is pointless, in fact, it only segregates the normal members and staff further because all of a sudden the entire site's fate is placed exclusively in the hands of 5 or so members- and everyone else is left wondering why the hell the latest radical change was necessary in the first place. Letting things like that be public would be a benefit. People can give input. Not just the same five people again and again. And then the people working on it are directly accountable. (It only took us, what? Four ♥♥♥♥ months to tell everyone there was a rule rewrite? And it's not even finished? It's a couple god damned paragraphs, it's not rocket science.) Suddenly there's incentive to get ♥♥♥♥ done because people are going to notice if it's not. Hiding behind a secret forum, spreading false lies of progress is no longer possible.
Secondly, the mods are the people who know what needs to be done to keep the site running. If the userbase feels like Candidate X would make a great staff member, that is usually communicated to the mods due to the size of our community, but ultimately the userbase has only a very general idea of what goes on in the inner power circles. The mods, I feel, have final say because they know who will be able to handle their responsibilities the best.
Not letting the rest of the forums know that we were doing a rules rewrite though, yes, that was total ♥♥♥♥. Some things have a reason to be hidden from the eye of the public (and rightly so, there are a few topics that would be highly controversial if released) but most of them are things like the rule rewrite. Things that affect us all, and should therefore be told to everyone. Hiding it is pointless, in fact, it only segregates the normal members and staff further because all of a sudden the entire site's fate is placed exclusively in the hands of 5 or so members- and everyone else is left wondering why the hell the latest radical change was necessary in the first place. Letting things like that be public would be a benefit. People can give input. Not just the same five people again and again. And then the people working on it are directly accountable. (It only took us, what? Four ♥♥♥♥ months to tell everyone there was a rule rewrite? And it's not even finished? It's a couple god damned paragraphs, it's not rocket science.) Suddenly there's incentive to get ♥♥♥♥ done because people are going to notice if it's not. Hiding behind a secret forum, spreading false lies of progress is no longer possible.
-
Venexis - Prophet of Shadowsquid
- Posts: 1342
- Joined: August 19th, 2009, 7:15 am
- Location: Headquarters of EVIL! And definitely NOT my garage... Nope...
- Thumbs Up given: 89 times
- Thumbs Up received: 211 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
Thumbs up x1
by nin10mode » May 25th, 2013, 6:53 pm
The whole reason we posted the forum rehaul thread was to hear your opinions.
And if you really want to know why the LLDC was postponed, Runouw is too busy to post the thread and actually wanted to release a new, more complete version to accompany it.
Though I digress.
I think I know what you guys want; something similar to a democracy. But in reality, if too many people have to agree to get things done, nothing gets done. Shouldn't the many Suggestions threads be enough?
By the way, this is not a populated site. I could see where you were coming from if we really did have thousands of active users, but we don't. We don't get millions of spam a day that we need to delete, we don't get a million PMs from users everyday, very rarely does a legitimate report about a real user show up. I think you're overestimating the workload.
And for ♥♥♥♥'s sake, honorary members are still honorary members. Do you really think so low of us that we don't listen to anyone if they don't have a color?
And if you really want to know why the LLDC was postponed, Runouw is too busy to post the thread and actually wanted to release a new, more complete version to accompany it.
Though I digress.
I think I know what you guys want; something similar to a democracy. But in reality, if too many people have to agree to get things done, nothing gets done. Shouldn't the many Suggestions threads be enough?
By the way, this is not a populated site. I could see where you were coming from if we really did have thousands of active users, but we don't. We don't get millions of spam a day that we need to delete, we don't get a million PMs from users everyday, very rarely does a legitimate report about a real user show up. I think you're overestimating the workload.
And for ♥♥♥♥'s sake, honorary members are still honorary members. Do you really think so low of us that we don't listen to anyone if they don't have a color?
-
nin10mode - Immune to Death
Error contacting Twitter 
Error contacting last.fm - Posts: 3087
- Joined: October 3rd, 2009, 6:11 am
- Location: Not here
Credit To Team - Thumbs Up given: 102 times
- Thumbs Up received: 221 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
by Raz » May 25th, 2013, 6:59 pm
I would have preferred if, after you guys discussed if you needed a rehaul, you asked us afterwards if we needed a rehaul.
And I highly doubt that anything, if at all, will even bother to be changed even after the replies in the thread.
I still personally believe a rehaul wasn't neccessary. Sure, the thread had aggressive feels to it such as the "don't be dumb" stuff, but that's it. Why do you feel the need to revise the whole thing, which is all just a repeat?
And I highly doubt that anything, if at all, will even bother to be changed even after the replies in the thread.
I still personally believe a rehaul wasn't neccessary. Sure, the thread had aggressive feels to it such as the "don't be dumb" stuff, but that's it. Why do you feel the need to revise the whole thing, which is all just a repeat?
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better
Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
-
Raz - "quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz
Error contacting Twitter - Posts: 4432
- Joined: July 12th, 2010, 5:48 pm
- Location: :-)
Razzian Fighter - Thumbs Up given: 40 times
- Thumbs Up received: 367 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
by SuYo1141 » May 25th, 2013, 7:01 pm
Okay, I definitely see your point, nin. I can't post much of a response due to family ties at this exact moment, but...
We're not asking for an absolute democracy, we're just asking for an increased amount of ties that the user representatives have to their users that they are required to represent, or the userbase itself having a larger tie to the influence of events. Granted, we don't have literal thousands of users, but the users highly outnumber the moderators. It would just be nice if we could slowly incorporate the opinions of more users into an opinionated system. That way, there aren't enough users to cause a cacophony in which nothing gets done, but at the same time more users can voice their opinions and feedback.
To respond to ven, while the moderators usually do have a heightened sense for what should get done, that's only because they get to see both sides of the issue at hand. If there's a problem with the userbase, or someone wants to apply, it usually gets sent to F23 or F41 or the PM system, and a decent amount of time later the mods come to a consensus and share it with us. They get to discuss amongst themselves and have the power to formulate a conclusion, while the users twiddle our ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wondering what the hell goes on in there anyway.
We're not asking for an absolute democracy, we're just asking for an increased amount of ties that the user representatives have to their users that they are required to represent, or the userbase itself having a larger tie to the influence of events. Granted, we don't have literal thousands of users, but the users highly outnumber the moderators. It would just be nice if we could slowly incorporate the opinions of more users into an opinionated system. That way, there aren't enough users to cause a cacophony in which nothing gets done, but at the same time more users can voice their opinions and feedback.
To respond to ven, while the moderators usually do have a heightened sense for what should get done, that's only because they get to see both sides of the issue at hand. If there's a problem with the userbase, or someone wants to apply, it usually gets sent to F23 or F41 or the PM system, and a decent amount of time later the mods come to a consensus and share it with us. They get to discuss amongst themselves and have the power to formulate a conclusion, while the users twiddle our ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wondering what the hell goes on in there anyway.
I'm SuYo the faker, I rant in Forum 23 so you don't have to.
-
SuYo1141 - Honorary Member
- Posts: 694
- Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 6:41 pm
- Location: Amidst miles and miles of cornfields.
Runouw Votes Winner - Thumbs Up given: 80 times
- Thumbs Up received: 72 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
by Raz » May 25th, 2013, 7:03 pm
Adding to what SuYo said, it'd be nice to know if you're denied from being in the Forum of Awesome or becoming a staff member. Just not telling the user at all doesn't seem fair.
Also a little bit late but
would be cool.
Also a little bit late but
nin10mode wrote:Moy, what sounds worse, Don't be Dumb, or Post how you would expect others to post? If you want, we can move the thread we discussed this in (or at least quote the important parts) here and see what went on in our heads.
would be cool.
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better
Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
-
Raz - "quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz
Error contacting Twitter - Posts: 4432
- Joined: July 12th, 2010, 5:48 pm
- Location: :-)
Razzian Fighter - Thumbs Up given: 40 times
- Thumbs Up received: 367 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
by nin10mode » May 25th, 2013, 7:08 pm
I don't know the system for admitting users, but I'd think that they would get a pm from a glomo.
SuYo, likewise, I can't as well, as I'm actually typing by phone right now, away from home.
SuYo, likewise, I can't as well, as I'm actually typing by phone right now, away from home.
-
nin10mode - Immune to Death
Error contacting Twitter Error contacting last.fm - Posts: 3087
- Joined: October 3rd, 2009, 6:11 am
- Location: Not here
Credit To Team - Thumbs Up given: 102 times
- Thumbs Up received: 221 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
by SuYo1141 » May 25th, 2013, 7:09 pm
nin10mode wrote:I don't know the system for admitting users, but I'd think that they would get a pm from a glomo.
From my experience, I didn't get anything at all for FoA admittance. It just popped up in the off topic section one day.
I'm SuYo the faker, I rant in Forum 23 so you don't have to.
-
SuYo1141 - Honorary Member
- Posts: 694
- Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 6:41 pm
- Location: Amidst miles and miles of cornfields.
Runouw Votes Winner - Thumbs Up given: 80 times
- Thumbs Up received: 72 times
Re: Okay, this has been on our minds for a while.
by NanTheDark » May 25th, 2013, 8:09 pm
While I was a Lemod, I was able to access the Forums of Awesome.
At least when I was able to access it, it was pretty much a spamfest. Nothing too worthwhile. In fact for a while they changed the format of that forum to look like 4chan and stuff...
I dunno if they do something more worthwhile now, but if it's still like it was back then, it's not really worth it.
Also, I'm not sure of why did they lock me out of that when I was demoted from Lemodness. Apparently only mods can do random stuff?
To be honest, I'm not too aware of things going on right now, but I guess the users should have a say on it. I mean, we're not that many, it can't be so hard to ask for an opinion... (and don't say we are tons of people. Most of the time I always see the same people posting stuff) And maybe the User Reps could be more involved in the way that they can relay info to us as to what's happening or asking for our opinions. Or something like that.
At least when I was able to access it, it was pretty much a spamfest. Nothing too worthwhile. In fact for a while they changed the format of that forum to look like 4chan and stuff...
I dunno if they do something more worthwhile now, but if it's still like it was back then, it's not really worth it.
Also, I'm not sure of why did they lock me out of that when I was demoted from Lemodness. Apparently only mods can do random stuff?
To be honest, I'm not too aware of things going on right now, but I guess the users should have a say on it. I mean, we're not that many, it can't be so hard to ask for an opinion... (and don't say we are tons of people. Most of the time I always see the same people posting stuff) And maybe the User Reps could be more involved in the way that they can relay info to us as to what's happening or asking for our opinions. Or something like that.
-
NanTheDark - As it breaks, it becomes stronger
- Posts: 2018
- Joined: December 23rd, 2010, 6:04 pm
- Location: Your screen
Runouw Votes Winner - Thumbs Up given: 191 times
- Thumbs Up received: 217 times
27 posts
• Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3