runouw.com

It's about time that I posted this, as I've been lurking on the forums on more than one occasion.

I've noticed that in my approximately year and a half of being around in the forums, that the community is closed. Yes, it's a small, tight family, and that's completely acceptable, but the outsiders, including myself, are left to only observe said tight family. I won't deny that it's possible to get into this group, but to any person outside of the circle, it's extremely rude and close-minded. To someone like me, this is like facing a brick wall. There's really no way to penetrate this, and so new users will be turned away. On several occasions, I've thought about leaving because of this and due to personal issues with a couple of members, which shall not be the main focus of this thread.

Another major issue that I've noticed is that the moderation team is quite literally nonexistent. There might be signs of the different colored users around, but nothing is being done other than removing and banning the spambots that post on the forums. Time and time again, there has been talk about change being in the forums, but honestly, when was the last time there was an actual sizable update on the forum that excludes SM64/LL or the rules being more specific? I haven't seem much, if any moderation since then, but rather just chatting and having a good time, which, don't get me wrong, is good.

I see many questions that revolve around attracting new members to the forums. However, it's merely talk, but no action is taken. We offer suggestions, and there is no general consensus about what should be done. Sure, Runouw and Suyo have lives, but is it really fair to the moderation team who frequents the forums more often and would be more likely candidates to fix the issues brought up by other users.

Before a counterargument is brought up about people liking how the forum is right now, have you ever truly considered those who are newer to Runouw? Things said between the close groups may be fun and games to other members, but we are intimidated by you, or don't feel like we can post anything that can contribute to these conversations. In a nutshell, the massive wave that is comprised of 'veterans' washes over the smaller wave of new members. Also, some of your fellow peers may have some issues about the forums as well, but refuses to say anything because change is a bad connotation around here.

The purpose of this thread is to address the issues I have with this thread (as per requested by several people), and to provoke meaningful conversation that is not blacklisting and such in hopes that changes will be made to compromise my issues and potentially others.

Just so no one attacks this, I did indeed ask for a thread.

Onto the discussion: Fair enough. I still don't see the close mindedness we apparently have, but I know as moderators we haven't been pushing for the changes we've suggested. Again, that's a matter of personal time that we're willing to devote to this forum, and at the very least I can speak for myself, who's in high school and have other dreams to pursue. I do think I have the drive to devote extra time here if absolutely necessary, and I don't think many other people would stay up late to write up a reasonable middle-ground stance, so I at least think I have the most time out of everyone to moderate. And that's saying a lot.

You apparently read that thread about making the site more active, and I may as well say here that I disagree with the LPing and such. I firmly believe that all the initial changes need to be done by Runouw and Suyo or another site programmer, with the reverting of the level portal, a new, sleeker web design, and more organized subforums. So I can agree with you in the argument that yeah, there is no consensus.

I kinda wanted you to analyze the staff (don't worry, I don't think any of us would take serious offense) as well, so if you could reply with that, that would be cool.

WickedOreo wrote:I've noticed that in my approximately year and a half of being around in the forums, that the community is closed. Yes, it's a small, tight family, and that's completely acceptable, but the outsiders, including myself, are left to only observe said tight family. I won't deny that it's possible to get into this group, but to any person outside of the circle, it's extremely rude and close-minded. To someone like me, this is like facing a brick wall. There's really no way to penetrate this, and so new users will be turned away. On several occasions, I've thought about leaving because of this and due to personal issues with a couple of members, which shall not be the main focus of this thread.

This. Is a huge issue. Pretty much every single one of us is guilty of it at some point or another, where a new guy comes across as annoying because they don't know everything about the site like we all do. We've been here five years now, and that's developed a pretty strong group mentality- we're used to seeing the same familiar faces, and very rarely a new addition. This seems to be our biggest problem. We're not exactly gaining droves of new members from SM643 and LL, and the few we do attract promptly disappear shortly after making a welcome topic.

As for individual members, we do have a fairly diverse range of personalities for the size of our active population. It's natural that there's going to be conflicts. In that sense, we're very much a family... we might get on each other's nerves, but when you get right down to it, we all still choose to come back. I'm sorry if I was one of those members who annoyed you, but I'd be totally open to discussing it via PM or Skype if necessary.

WickedOreo wrote:Another major issue that I've noticed is that the moderation team is quite literally nonexistent. There might be signs of the different colored users around, but nothing is being done other than removing and banning the spambots that post on the forums. Time and time again, there has been talk about change being in the forums, but honestly, when was the last time there was an actual sizable update on the forum that excludes SM64/LL or the rules being more specific? I haven't seem much, if any moderation since then, but rather just chatting and having a good time, which, don't get me wrong, is good.

I disagree entirely with this. Many members of our moderator team are now on the brink of adult life. This means jobs, sports, IRL friends, school all become ridiculously more important in the long term than checking on Runouw every day. I've talked with pretty much all of our staff roster at some point or another, and while they certainly are busy, is there anyone who would do a better job? I sincerely doubt it. These guys have almost all been with us from the start, and know the site and it's community extremely well; not counting their proficiency as individuals, that fact alone makes them among the top choices for staff.

You mentioned that all we seem to do is talk, and I'll give you that. It's true. We're a lazy community... no, not lazy, just not as motivated anymore. But maybe that's not all the problem. As things stand, there's a topic for exactly this in F23, and it is entirely talk with little to no action. Maybe that's a problem with how it was approached, though. A few people have tried, but they're essentially trying to take on a mountain alone, and for understandable reasons that kills motivation pretty fast. I'd advocate for splitting it up into several sections, and giving multiple willing users a few clearly defined tasks- two or three things that would take maybe half an hour each to complete, as opposed to a pile of things with no easy start point.

WickedOreo wrote:I see many questions that revolve around attracting new members to the forums. However, it's merely talk, but no action is taken. We offer suggestions, and there is no general consensus about what should be done. Sure, Runouw and Suyo have lives, but is it really fair to the moderation team who frequents the forums more often and would be more likely candidates to fix the issues brought up by other users.

I disagree with this too. Several members of our level designing force have taken it upon themselves to organize things on Youtube in an attempt to attract new users. This was brought up comparatively recently, though, and given the scale of the project (requiring users to be familiar with Youtube, recording software, the level designer, excited about what they're trying to present) it's an incredible start. Things are definitely being both actively discussed and executed in an attempt to attract members.

WickedOreo wrote:Before a counterargument is brought up about people liking how the forum is right now, have you ever truly considered those who are newer to Runouw? Things said between the close groups may be fun and games to other members, but we are intimidated by you, or don't feel like we can post anything that can contribute to these conversations. In a nutshell, the massive wave that is comprised of 'veterans' washes over the smaller wave of new members. Also, some of your fellow peers may have some issues about the forums as well, but refuses to say anything because change is a bad connotation around here.

I do like Runouw, but you're speaking the truth. Five years of seeing only the same members with the same mannerisms has made us unwilling (maybe even annoyed) to welcome newbies who don't have our knowledge of how things work around here. I don't have any issues beyond those covered here, but it's definitely a problem. Good news is it's a problem that's easy enough to repair with a bit of understanding.

WickedOreo wrote:The purpose of this thread is to address the issues I have with this thread (as per requested by several people), and to provoke meaningful conversation that is not blacklisting and such in hopes that changes will be made to compromise my issues and potentially others.

I've covered a few solutions, but I think there's one severely under-utilized aspect of the site that could help significantly here. User Representatives are supposed to.. well, represent the users. It's pretty much the only purpose of the purple name. That puts us in a position to facilitate the newbie-veteran divide.

Yeah, it might mean shuffling up the UR group a little, trading some of the less active/sociable members for people who would be willing to show the new guys around without getting frustrated and annoyed, but really, we should be the first line of defence for this sort of thing. LevelMods are making sure the level portal is clean, Mods are keeping the peace, GloMos are directly affecting the running and maintenance of the forums.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, URs need to be more active somehow. Otherwise we might as well not exist. It's not very demanding to show a single new user the ropes, nor would it be a time-comsuming task to do a small part of the preparation for that forum overhaul we've been tossing around for a year.

As for the rest of the community, I genuinely feel that our other staff are doing the best they can while simultaneously juggling real life commitments. There isn't anyone I'd choose to replace anyone on the staff roster, they're all in those positions because of both their time with the site and their qualifications. It falls to everyone to understand that these things are issues, though, even if the impact isn't felt among the veterans. We were all new at one point, and it's important to remember that when dealing with our (often young) new users.

wall of text strikes again

I really don't want anyone to start a flame war with this, and you know Oreo that I don't have a problem with you, in fact I do respect what you're saying. But I still have to disagree with a lot of the things said, but I want to just clear it up from my angle.

WickedOreo wrote:I've noticed that in my approximately year and a half of being around in the forums, that the community is closed. Yes, it's a small, tight family, and that's completely acceptable, but the outsiders, including myself, are left to only observe said tight family. I won't deny that it's possible to get into this group, but to any person outside of the circle, it's extremely rude and close-minded. To someone like me, this is like facing a brick wall. There's really no way to penetrate this, and so new users will be turned away. On several occasions, I've thought about leaving because of this and due to personal issues with a couple of members, which shall not be the main focus of this thread.

I am not going to disagree with the fact we are a close-knit community, because we are. But I don't think we've ever stopped others from joining, or not since the incident last year, which we have fixed now. Most of the members who join Runouw make a welcome topic and don't stay long enough to get involved or leave immediately after, or they get involved with the forums and stay continuously or leave briefly and return some time later. And for the record, I actually see you as part of the Runouw family, I feel you've been distancing yourself recently for sure, but you're active here and on runouw skype and chat so I see you as a valid member. The problems we had last year is very different to how things are now.

WickedOreo wrote:Another major issue that I've noticed is that the moderation team is quite literally nonexistent. There might be signs of the different colored users around, but nothing is being done other than removing and banning the spambots that post on the forums. Time and time again, there has been talk about change being in the forums, but honestly, when was the last time there was an actual sizable update on the forum that excludes SM64/LL or the rules being more specific? I haven't seem much, if any moderation since then, but rather just chatting and having a good time, which, don't get me wrong, is good.

I...did find this upsetting to read. The only way to prove to you that we are doing work if we get a screenshot of the MCP. But we're doing a lot. In fact, it's great that you don't notice because it means we're doing our jobs silently, efficiently and without interruption. Level mods jobs are to discuss level events and to disapprove/approve levels. They do this everyday, if there are still levels going onto the portal that means they are working. And they do use F41 to discuss future LDCs and events. Mods jobs are to update old topics, pages, moderate the MCP, the forums, and solve reports, which they do well. Global mods are the same, but also have the ACP to look after.
When I'm doing my job, I'm keeping an eye out specifically for spambots, reports, some spare levels if I have the time, changing the header video when my internet is working fast enough, and moderating topics to make sure no-one is getting themselves upset. But yeah, most mods work behind the scenes, and it's easy to overlook what they're doing.

WickedOreo wrote:I see many questions that revolve around attracting new members to the forums. However, it's merely talk, but no action is taken. We offer suggestions, and there is no general consensus about what should be done. Sure, Runouw and Suyo have lives, but is it really fair to the moderation team who frequents the forums more often and would be more likely candidates to fix the issues brought up by other users.

This is true, but a lot of the action that needs to be taken involves money, or a lot of time that a lot of us don't have to spare at the moment. It doesn't mean we'll never do it, but it definitely needs extra planning anyway. Besides, it's not been all talk, I have started a level recording event on one of my own topics that people have taken a liking to. Also, it's not just Suyo and Runouw with lives, a lot of us are dealing with all sorts right now, and for me in particular I do have to make some priorities.


Also, change is a scary thing. It doesn't mean it's bad, but it is a risk, and not all of us are happy to take such risks, I for one. I'm just sharing my angle here though, again I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating my personal views, I don't want anyone to get any hate, and I don't want anyone's lines of sanity to be crossed during this topic.

Well, it's really hard to come up with an accurate representation of the moderation team that isn't biased in some way or another.

For starters, Runouw and I have talked a few occasions on Facebook or whatever, and he seems like a pretty good person to me, with good ideas and a mind that is willing to compromise. My only issue is that he's quite busy and cannot get those ideas implemented.

The same goes for Suyo. While he may do the main job of coding the site, I would assume that he has a life too and cannot dedicate the time to do anything. I haven't really spoken to him, so I can't say much other than that.

MP3 is probably my favorite moderator, and not because she is female. She's the more active moderator I see out there doing stuff, and sometimes, I talk to her about what's going on my mind about certain stuff. I've always gone to her first, and usually there is something done to help fix whatever issue I have, or an explanation why there cannot be any action taken.

Nin, Chau and the rest of the team are... not really moderators to me. Sure, they have the color change and all, but I have yet to see any action taken by them in any situation that warranted it. I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

I have no opinions on the Level Mods because I don't post levels.

Overall, I feel like MP3 is taking the bulk of the work that is able to be seen.

The issue with this, though, is that there's not enough community representatives helping out, or we desperately need a change of staff. Perhaps it's better if we start anew, working with new people who have more time, because, certainly, we're all growing teenagers and time is hard to find for most of us. If there is an issue with the time that staff have, then it's better to pass the position on to someone else who can be trusted with the shift of power and able to help with the site.

I'll give you that I've been distant recently, and it's true. I have had a lot happen over these past several months. However, I've been more or less conspiring about completely irrelevant philosophical topics with DarthBrowser these past few weeks. He and I have recently formed a little intellectual corner for us to hide in.

Also, User Representatives must be considered as well. The only outstanding person in the crowd is Ven, whereas everyone else is really inactive.

While the community itself is small and doesn't need a whole lot of moderation (1-2 people as moderators who keep the forums in line and deal with spambots), what we need is a team of, say, 2-3 dedicated people who can help change the site and do internal stuff so that it's more organized.

I've said most of what I wanted to say at this point, so I'll end my post here.

Maybe Chau, no offense, but definitely not Nin.
Have you not seen his posts?

Raz wrote:Maybe Chau, no offense, but definitely not Nin.
Have you not seen his posts?

I don't look into every thread, so no.

WickedOreo wrote:

Raz wrote:Maybe Chau, no offense, but definitely not Nin.
Have you not seen his posts?

I don't look into every thread, so no.

Not to be rude, but I don't think you are in the position to judge Nin like that then, he's a great staff member, easily one of the best.

Raz wrote:

WickedOreo wrote:

Raz wrote:Maybe Chau, no offense, but definitely not Nin.
Have you not seen his posts?

I don't look into every thread, so no.

Not to be rudeI don't think you are in the position to judge Nin like that then.

WickedOreo wrote:Well, it's really hard to come up with an accurate representation of the moderation team that isn't biased in some way or another.

I don't purport myself to know of all the moderators, hence my admittance of being biased in the first place.

WickedOreo wrote:Nin, Chau and the rest of the team are... not really moderators to me. Sure, they have the color change and all, but I have yet to see any action taken by them in any situation that warranted it. I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

Sigh. No need to say, that it isn't nice to hear that.