- This post by WickedOreo was thumbed up by: 2
- Karyete (February 21st, 2014, 4:15 am) • Master1.0 (February 21st, 2014, 3:58 pm)
What Gives?
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This is Serious Discussion. If you want to tell us how your day was or just get some things off your chest, you will find ample opportunity to find a corner to discuss all the good things we see, or reach out to anyone who needs help. Just remember to pay attention to the Principles of Serious Discussion, and link to the source if posting news.
What Gives?
Thumbs up x2 
by WickedOreo » February 20th, 2014, 9:50 pm
My apologies for not really posting much, there isn't really much for me to post relevant information to at the current time.
I have about 10 more months before I turn 18, a milestone in my life, or should it be a milestone?
Less than 500 years ago, mankind was different. Quite different, by any means.
Women and men were married (sometimes, and even earlier, married into their own families) around the age of 13, and then were expected to have children shortly after. Before the American Industrial Revolution, before men had to go out and work jobs, the responsibility and workload that was expected of nearly all ages was virtually equal. Yes, women were equal to men, because their jobs mutually benefited the family. It was required of them. Children who came of age (usually around 10 or older) were expected to help or even lead the chores.
Fast-forward to the modern age. We are all considered children until we turn 18. Jobs are illegal to acquire until we turn 16, 15 in some cases. We are not allowed sexual contact until we are 16 (in most states), and we are not allowed to legally marry until we are 18. Parents are given strict custody of us, unless otherwise revoked or specified by governmental state law. That means that we are to follow everything they say, or they hold the power against us to call the police on complaint of disobedience, which usually means a referral to a juvenile court or correctional institution, where are behavior is stereotyped into one of a mindless being, a value we supposedly toss aside as garbage and abolish.
Do people usually account for the teenager's story? In my brutal, honest, and humble opinion, based on the evidence shown in front of me, my life and my experiences, I can say no. A firm, definite "No." Are there exceptions? Of course there are.
I have lived on this earth for 17 years. Since December 1996, I have breathed this air and lived like almost every human being, have the same qualities as any other human being, and will age just like every other being. I have personally been through some life-changing events, that including both of my grandparents passing away in less than two months of each other last year, yet I am still treated like I am any other 5 year-old.
What exactly do I mean by this? I am forced to sleep at the same time every night, even when I feel that I am not tired, am busy, or just cannot sleep due to thoughts buzzing around in my mind. I cannot seek my own professional help, when I am showing telltale symptoms of chronic depression. I cannot do many things, despite the intellectual maturity I have clearly shown among my peers. I have aged beyond myself to the point of where days ago seem like years, whereas at the same time, those days pass quickly. I have also transitioned into a woman, physically and mentally. It seems like the only freedom I have is in my thoughts, from which I deduced this rant, many other more, and my identity, what I want to call myself.
There are many thoughts which pass me each day. As I grow older, my options are limited, and then opened as I 'officially' am an adult, according to the United States government. As that day passes, I am suddenly given all of those freedoms, however, yesterday, the day before, I am the same person I would be the next day. Does this make any sense? Should there be a set date to when I am considered an 'adult'? Science has shown in multiple studies that we all mature differently, that we require different things to maintain a healthy life. Some of us require more babying than others, and people who are naturally independent and aware of their surroundings at a very early age should be able to be deemed stable enough to go out into the own world.
That itself brings up implications, unfortunately. Where in the name of Gott would we be able to get the funding to test for appropriate maturity levels, let alone even decide what is mature and what is not? The world is dictated by adult citizens; how they think, how things are judged, how they run the world, when our brains are just as capable of their line of thought. Are they able to perform introspection-- the act of looking upon one's self to ascertain data of their psychological state, condition, and other observation-- to understand how they were how they were our age, and then apply it to their studies, or are we too far removed from them to really have a say? Is that the case, that the newest generation and those to come are already voided their valuable opinions until we are eventually robbed of our free will and become just as much of a slave as they are? It's extremely derogatory and degrading to the nature of humans. It's incriminating, even.
This personally makes me feel undermined. A slave to the rest of the human race, unable to say anything; to become a bystander in my own politics. My words are merely trampled over, trodden over and ignored like the many teenagers before me have experienced. The juxtaposition of adulthood over the past several centuries has gone downhill and worsened to the point of complete ignorance over the 'millenniums' our parents have given us. Life is priceless. Each human has a right to have their voice heard and given a fair and just criticism or compromise. No human should be struggling to be the alpha of the pack, nor have to be at the bottom of the 'food chain' because they have something that someone just like them has. An Utopian view at best, we cannot solve this by merely changing ourselves. The change must come from a shift of mindset from adults themselves, the very antagonist I painted throughout this, to change it from one of a static understanding that they are more wise than their younger counterparts and therefore have a more relevant opinion, to one of a fluid, understanding point of view, where rights need not be restricted just because they are 'young' and 'inexperienced' with the world. The current generation of young adults may be the first to make a dent in this indecency, just like how we have also advocated for legal marriages and unions of homosexual couples and other large topics. Until then, I will be forced to sit here as a pedestrian.
10 long months until this opinion can be void in my case. I will suddenly gain a voice. However, for now, I am left speaking to stale air, letting my mind ramble on like it has any other day. And it will continue until that day, unfortunately. I will have to learn to keep my quarrels to myself because the listening ears in my world (the world of reality, not the internet) will refuse any such idea that goes against the grain of what 'normal society' is.
And that, my friends, is my personal rant. I have just woken up from a couple minute rant shortly before writing this, so my mind is sightly drowsy still. I apologize if I have repeated anything or if anything did not make sense.
I have about 10 more months before I turn 18, a milestone in my life, or should it be a milestone?
Less than 500 years ago, mankind was different. Quite different, by any means.
Women and men were married (sometimes, and even earlier, married into their own families) around the age of 13, and then were expected to have children shortly after. Before the American Industrial Revolution, before men had to go out and work jobs, the responsibility and workload that was expected of nearly all ages was virtually equal. Yes, women were equal to men, because their jobs mutually benefited the family. It was required of them. Children who came of age (usually around 10 or older) were expected to help or even lead the chores.
Fast-forward to the modern age. We are all considered children until we turn 18. Jobs are illegal to acquire until we turn 16, 15 in some cases. We are not allowed sexual contact until we are 16 (in most states), and we are not allowed to legally marry until we are 18. Parents are given strict custody of us, unless otherwise revoked or specified by governmental state law. That means that we are to follow everything they say, or they hold the power against us to call the police on complaint of disobedience, which usually means a referral to a juvenile court or correctional institution, where are behavior is stereotyped into one of a mindless being, a value we supposedly toss aside as garbage and abolish.
Do people usually account for the teenager's story? In my brutal, honest, and humble opinion, based on the evidence shown in front of me, my life and my experiences, I can say no. A firm, definite "No." Are there exceptions? Of course there are.
I have lived on this earth for 17 years. Since December 1996, I have breathed this air and lived like almost every human being, have the same qualities as any other human being, and will age just like every other being. I have personally been through some life-changing events, that including both of my grandparents passing away in less than two months of each other last year, yet I am still treated like I am any other 5 year-old.
What exactly do I mean by this? I am forced to sleep at the same time every night, even when I feel that I am not tired, am busy, or just cannot sleep due to thoughts buzzing around in my mind. I cannot seek my own professional help, when I am showing telltale symptoms of chronic depression. I cannot do many things, despite the intellectual maturity I have clearly shown among my peers. I have aged beyond myself to the point of where days ago seem like years, whereas at the same time, those days pass quickly. I have also transitioned into a woman, physically and mentally. It seems like the only freedom I have is in my thoughts, from which I deduced this rant, many other more, and my identity, what I want to call myself.
There are many thoughts which pass me each day. As I grow older, my options are limited, and then opened as I 'officially' am an adult, according to the United States government. As that day passes, I am suddenly given all of those freedoms, however, yesterday, the day before, I am the same person I would be the next day. Does this make any sense? Should there be a set date to when I am considered an 'adult'? Science has shown in multiple studies that we all mature differently, that we require different things to maintain a healthy life. Some of us require more babying than others, and people who are naturally independent and aware of their surroundings at a very early age should be able to be deemed stable enough to go out into the own world.
That itself brings up implications, unfortunately. Where in the name of Gott would we be able to get the funding to test for appropriate maturity levels, let alone even decide what is mature and what is not? The world is dictated by adult citizens; how they think, how things are judged, how they run the world, when our brains are just as capable of their line of thought. Are they able to perform introspection-- the act of looking upon one's self to ascertain data of their psychological state, condition, and other observation-- to understand how they were how they were our age, and then apply it to their studies, or are we too far removed from them to really have a say? Is that the case, that the newest generation and those to come are already voided their valuable opinions until we are eventually robbed of our free will and become just as much of a slave as they are? It's extremely derogatory and degrading to the nature of humans. It's incriminating, even.
This personally makes me feel undermined. A slave to the rest of the human race, unable to say anything; to become a bystander in my own politics. My words are merely trampled over, trodden over and ignored like the many teenagers before me have experienced. The juxtaposition of adulthood over the past several centuries has gone downhill and worsened to the point of complete ignorance over the 'millenniums' our parents have given us. Life is priceless. Each human has a right to have their voice heard and given a fair and just criticism or compromise. No human should be struggling to be the alpha of the pack, nor have to be at the bottom of the 'food chain' because they have something that someone just like them has. An Utopian view at best, we cannot solve this by merely changing ourselves. The change must come from a shift of mindset from adults themselves, the very antagonist I painted throughout this, to change it from one of a static understanding that they are more wise than their younger counterparts and therefore have a more relevant opinion, to one of a fluid, understanding point of view, where rights need not be restricted just because they are 'young' and 'inexperienced' with the world. The current generation of young adults may be the first to make a dent in this indecency, just like how we have also advocated for legal marriages and unions of homosexual couples and other large topics. Until then, I will be forced to sit here as a pedestrian.
10 long months until this opinion can be void in my case. I will suddenly gain a voice. However, for now, I am left speaking to stale air, letting my mind ramble on like it has any other day. And it will continue until that day, unfortunately. I will have to learn to keep my quarrels to myself because the listening ears in my world (the world of reality, not the internet) will refuse any such idea that goes against the grain of what 'normal society' is.
And that, my friends, is my personal rant. I have just woken up from a couple minute rant shortly before writing this, so my mind is sightly drowsy still. I apologize if I have repeated anything or if anything did not make sense.
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Re: What Gives?
Thumbs up x3
by Venexis » February 20th, 2014, 11:58 pm
I'll preface this by saying that 500 years ago would place us roughly between the Dark Ages and the Elizabethan Era, a time in which humanity was only just beginning to reignite its spark of discovery. It would have been around the time Copernicus discovered that we weren't the center of the universe, that we weren't even the center of our own solar system. It would have been DaVinci's time, and later, Galileo's time. Martin Behaim made the earliest known globe almost five centuries ago. The modern pencil, the thermometer, methods of focusing light with lenses for use in microscopes and telescopes also hail from around this time period. And the world population was probably less than some 400 million individuals.
In short, yes. It was a very different place. Both our technology and population have sharply increased since then, and alongside it, our ability to spread our influence around the globe.
We now live in a time of unparalleled discovery. Humanity can (generally) enjoy an easier life than that of a hundred years ago, thanks to scientific breakthroughs on an almost daily basis. It's automatic for many of us, to log onto our computers and hold the collective resources offered by the internet at our fingertips. It takes seconds to find an answer on Google, or news of conflict in a country thousands of miles away.
But we also live in a time of unparalleled ignorance, stupidity, and greed. As our technology has increased, so has our reliance on it. We no longer question the authorities, because that would require us to use all the resources made available to us via computers, cellphones, and the internet. Our reliance has made us lazy. It's also enabled a select few who see an opportunity.
Why is this important? Because almost anyone with the desire can come in and take control. They already have. Our news outlets have the ability to censor important world events. There's riots in the Ukraine right now, and have been for months, but instead we hear about how celebrities are arrested for stupidity or how America is a great country because of all the medals their athletes are winning at the Olympics. Speaking of the Olympics, how about the ring that failed during the opening ceremony? As soon as the failure was evident, footage was switched to a rehearsal in which everything worked properly.
"There's nothing wrong." "We didn't make a mistake." "Don't focus on this important world event, here's some celebrity gossip to take your mind off it." It's subtle, but happening, and all of it has been conditioning us to not think for ourselves. And it's been happening for years. War propaganda is specifically designed to bend people's impressions of the events. During WWII and the Cold War, everyone in America was told that the Nazis and the communists are the bad guys; conversely, the Nazis and Soviets definitely managed to convince the people who mattered that we were the evil ones, or the wars never would have happened. We're on peacekeeping missions in nations more because they have something we want than because we care about the government or people there, but you only ever hear about how great our country is for reaching out on the news. The warping of our media is so widespread with modern technology now that it's almost criminal when a student corrects a teacher, and people like Snowden need to flee the country because they try to speak out.
And so nobody questions it. Nobody looks deeper. It is almost criminal now, because the people with power actively try to discredit or villainize anyone who dares make their lives harder by holding them accountable to their decisions.
With that in mind, it's no big surprise that "troublemakers" who ask questions often feel oppressed. It's even less surprising when you factor in the world population of an incredible 7.2 billion, a far cry away from the population even a hundred years ago. You're not only shamed for being curious, you're suffocated out of the limelight by the overwhelming numbers of those who are indifferent as long as it doesn't deprive them of their creature comforts.
That out of the way, are you a slave? Do you really feel like one, after asking the questions you just did? It must certainly feel like being chained down. Everyone is imprisoned in this day and age, when a moment to yourself without your call history being recorded or a camera peering at you from a rooftop is a rare luxury indeed, but you can certainly affect the degree to which you're imprisoned.
You're clearly asking questions, just like Copernicus did nearly five hundred years ago, and look what that started. We really do live in a marvelous time. For instance:
You're wrong. You've always had a voice, because I firmly believe nothing short of the end of humanity could take it away from you. The only trick is figuring out how to use it... write a book, find your own answers online, rally others, be sure to call out the authorities when they're wrong, and make them defend any position they take. The possibilities are immense when you consider just how interconnected technology has made us. When you come of age, you gain the ability to vote. I've always found doing things to be the more productive option, though. Certainly you should vote, but then take the time to do more, if it really bothers you. Age doesn't matter on the internet, any more than it would matter if you wrote a letter or called your government anonymously.
A voice never truly dies if it's recorded, a book can never really burn if it's remembered, and a memory won't ever be forgotten until the people holding onto it give up hope.
Wow I'm tired
In short, yes. It was a very different place. Both our technology and population have sharply increased since then, and alongside it, our ability to spread our influence around the globe.
We now live in a time of unparalleled discovery. Humanity can (generally) enjoy an easier life than that of a hundred years ago, thanks to scientific breakthroughs on an almost daily basis. It's automatic for many of us, to log onto our computers and hold the collective resources offered by the internet at our fingertips. It takes seconds to find an answer on Google, or news of conflict in a country thousands of miles away.
But we also live in a time of unparalleled ignorance, stupidity, and greed. As our technology has increased, so has our reliance on it. We no longer question the authorities, because that would require us to use all the resources made available to us via computers, cellphones, and the internet. Our reliance has made us lazy. It's also enabled a select few who see an opportunity.
Why is this important? Because almost anyone with the desire can come in and take control. They already have. Our news outlets have the ability to censor important world events. There's riots in the Ukraine right now, and have been for months, but instead we hear about how celebrities are arrested for stupidity or how America is a great country because of all the medals their athletes are winning at the Olympics. Speaking of the Olympics, how about the ring that failed during the opening ceremony? As soon as the failure was evident, footage was switched to a rehearsal in which everything worked properly.
"There's nothing wrong." "We didn't make a mistake." "Don't focus on this important world event, here's some celebrity gossip to take your mind off it." It's subtle, but happening, and all of it has been conditioning us to not think for ourselves. And it's been happening for years. War propaganda is specifically designed to bend people's impressions of the events. During WWII and the Cold War, everyone in America was told that the Nazis and the communists are the bad guys; conversely, the Nazis and Soviets definitely managed to convince the people who mattered that we were the evil ones, or the wars never would have happened. We're on peacekeeping missions in nations more because they have something we want than because we care about the government or people there, but you only ever hear about how great our country is for reaching out on the news. The warping of our media is so widespread with modern technology now that it's almost criminal when a student corrects a teacher, and people like Snowden need to flee the country because they try to speak out.
And so nobody questions it. Nobody looks deeper. It is almost criminal now, because the people with power actively try to discredit or villainize anyone who dares make their lives harder by holding them accountable to their decisions.
With that in mind, it's no big surprise that "troublemakers" who ask questions often feel oppressed. It's even less surprising when you factor in the world population of an incredible 7.2 billion, a far cry away from the population even a hundred years ago. You're not only shamed for being curious, you're suffocated out of the limelight by the overwhelming numbers of those who are indifferent as long as it doesn't deprive them of their creature comforts.
That out of the way, are you a slave? Do you really feel like one, after asking the questions you just did? It must certainly feel like being chained down. Everyone is imprisoned in this day and age, when a moment to yourself without your call history being recorded or a camera peering at you from a rooftop is a rare luxury indeed, but you can certainly affect the degree to which you're imprisoned.
You're clearly asking questions, just like Copernicus did nearly five hundred years ago, and look what that started. We really do live in a marvelous time. For instance:
WickedOreo wrote:10 long months until.... I will suddenly gain a voice.
You're wrong. You've always had a voice, because I firmly believe nothing short of the end of humanity could take it away from you. The only trick is figuring out how to use it... write a book, find your own answers online, rally others, be sure to call out the authorities when they're wrong, and make them defend any position they take. The possibilities are immense when you consider just how interconnected technology has made us. When you come of age, you gain the ability to vote. I've always found doing things to be the more productive option, though. Certainly you should vote, but then take the time to do more, if it really bothers you. Age doesn't matter on the internet, any more than it would matter if you wrote a letter or called your government anonymously.
A voice never truly dies if it's recorded, a book can never really burn if it's remembered, and a memory won't ever be forgotten until the people holding onto it give up hope.
Wow I'm tired
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Re: What Gives?
by Karyete » February 21st, 2014, 4:31 am
Reading Ven's post has honestly given me a tiny bit of realisation. However I have believed for a long time that we have too much reliance on the internet - because it makes our lives simpler.
But discussing on Oreo's post, I am considered 'a young teenager'. According to most people I know, I have the maturity of an adult. Hell, my reading age is almost 19 years old and I'm not even 14 yet. I'm also ridiculously tall, growing a small mustache and even the beginnings of a beard (although I disagree because a few visible hairs isn't a beard).
And what happens? When it comes down to it, I'm still only 13. I still have to do whatever I'm told, whenever, since I'm only 13, despite me not really acting 13 at all. If I have an opinion that, potentially, could make a difference to something, it will most likely be ignored - because of my age. Whatever argument I have, I will probably be accused of being wrong - because of my age. Age is a lock, and at 18, like you say, you're given a key.
So, basically, I wholly agree with what you've said. All of it - everything I've read in your post I have agreed with.
But discussing on Oreo's post, I am considered 'a young teenager'. According to most people I know, I have the maturity of an adult. Hell, my reading age is almost 19 years old and I'm not even 14 yet. I'm also ridiculously tall, growing a small mustache and even the beginnings of a beard (although I disagree because a few visible hairs isn't a beard).
And what happens? When it comes down to it, I'm still only 13. I still have to do whatever I'm told, whenever, since I'm only 13, despite me not really acting 13 at all. If I have an opinion that, potentially, could make a difference to something, it will most likely be ignored - because of my age. Whatever argument I have, I will probably be accused of being wrong - because of my age. Age is a lock, and at 18, like you say, you're given a key.
So, basically, I wholly agree with what you've said. All of it - everything I've read in your post I have agreed with.
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Re: What Gives?
by Harmless » February 21st, 2014, 5:43 pm
Man, I can relate to this in so many other ways than just parents. Sometimes people older than me that I either have some or no relation to at all in general just shut me out because of my age. That sort of thing has gotten a little better as I've been taken a bit more seriously nowadays, but even so such prejudice over age is honestly ridiculous. On the other hand, I have seen young people (often of this generation) have no idea what the ♥♥♥♥ they're talking about and often just become an annoyance... fast.
Of course, my example of such young people does not apply to the majority of the world. Oreo, I honestly thought you were a hell of a lot older than you seemed when I tried to discern your age of mentality from what you've posted in these kind of serious threads. And you are, at least from a mental age and point of view. Physical age really doesn't matter in anything but sex, alcohol, driving, and possibly a few other things, which is stuff that we learn about as we grow older anyway.
To judge one's mental age off one's physical age though is a really poor misconception, one I often see among parents, kids, and people in general alike.
Of course, my example of such young people does not apply to the majority of the world. Oreo, I honestly thought you were a hell of a lot older than you seemed when I tried to discern your age of mentality from what you've posted in these kind of serious threads. And you are, at least from a mental age and point of view. Physical age really doesn't matter in anything but sex, alcohol, driving, and possibly a few other things, which is stuff that we learn about as we grow older anyway.
To judge one's mental age off one's physical age though is a really poor misconception, one I often see among parents, kids, and people in general alike.
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Re: What Gives?
by ChaosYoshi » February 21st, 2014, 6:29 pm
Venexis wrote:"There's nothing wrong." "We didn't make a mistake." "Don't focus on this important world event, here's some celebrity gossip to take your mind off it." It's subtle, but happening, and all of it has been conditioning us to not think for ourselves. And it's been happening for years. War propaganda is specifically designed to bend people's impressions of the events. During WWII and the Cold War, everyone in America was told that the Nazis and the communists are the bad guys; conversely, the Nazis and Soviets definitely managed to convince the people who mattered that we were the evil ones, or the wars never would have happened. We're on peacekeeping missions in nations more because they have something we want than because we care about the government or people there, but you only ever hear about how great our country is for reaching out on the news. The warping of our media is so widespread with modern technology now that it's almost criminal when a student corrects a teacher, and people like Snowden need to flee the country because they try to speak out.
This part especially reminds me of Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
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Re: What Gives?
by darthbrowser » February 25th, 2014, 7:52 pm
The problem is that the social constraints never go away. Once one is 18, you get a few more de jure legal privileges, and your argument is valid insofar as those are concerned, but...the cultural and social constraints never go away.
People will always judge for the most assinine of reasons, for the greatest cruelty makes up for the weakest premise.
Adults are controlled just as easily as kids, do not assume that the separation is distinct. Before we were born, a thousand collective ideals and virtues schemed to see us broken.
We divide ourselves into groups, emphasize imagined differences, and hurt those who don't fall perfectly into the cookie cutter.
And humans are naturally designed to be highly sensitive to their social circumstances. People can be driven to suicide via things which don't seem so bad to an outside observer. And this is used to ensure people don't speak or act out. It is a crime against humanity, if there ever was one.
Perhaps I'm just looking for a justification for suicide, by I can't help but note how hopeless it seems for us - over-evolved to the point where we can recognize these things, yet not far enough so as to be able to overcome them.
People will always judge for the most assinine of reasons, for the greatest cruelty makes up for the weakest premise.
Adults are controlled just as easily as kids, do not assume that the separation is distinct. Before we were born, a thousand collective ideals and virtues schemed to see us broken.
We divide ourselves into groups, emphasize imagined differences, and hurt those who don't fall perfectly into the cookie cutter.
And humans are naturally designed to be highly sensitive to their social circumstances. People can be driven to suicide via things which don't seem so bad to an outside observer. And this is used to ensure people don't speak or act out. It is a crime against humanity, if there ever was one.
Perhaps I'm just looking for a justification for suicide, by I can't help but note how hopeless it seems for us - over-evolved to the point where we can recognize these things, yet not far enough so as to be able to overcome them.
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