[Religion discussion] I want to share something

[Bogdan]

Hello people, my name is Bogdan and I'm romanian. (Probably something you know already). You may also know that here, in Romania, we have a thing called "religion class" at school in which is nothing, but either pure waste of time or just ♥♥♥♥ about christian orthodox religion (depends on the teacher mostly). If you want to see a part of my opinions on religion The Discussion Corner is the place, but here I would like to talk to you more deeply about this subject.

Before anything, if you feel offended by my views, then don't read the topic at all, I'm currently irreligious and I'm really tired of the massive crapeatingfest that happens in our schools (and not only). Are we ready to start? Great!

Ok so not too long ago, we started school and thus had religion classes aswell. Last year we "learned" religion from another teacher that was not a priest, but a simple guy who really probably couldn't teach anything else. Not like we did anything serious in his class anyway. However, this year we take religion classes from a christian orthodox priest and he wants his class to be taken seriously, but I really think that whatever he says, he says it wrong. Last class, he told us something about "God's existence", which in essence is the following:

God's existence is not something to be discussed, it is something that should be affirmed. (Bog's note: he 'explained' us later, by that he means litterary just screaming out loud "God is real!" without even thinking about doubting (or discussing) his existence.) God is not somebody or something that can be seen, heard, sniffed, touched, tasted or even communicate with, God is himself the proof of his existence (I'm swear I didn't alterate, nor invent this quote, he really said that. So he cannot be feeled with any of hour senses, nor scientifically/logically prooved that he exists, yet "God himself is the proof of it's existence"?). God itself is love and will never refuse any soul. The souls that end in hell are not people who were rejected by god, but who rejected god. A good christian should read the Bible everyday, go to church on sundays and always refuse any form of material joy, all you need is spiritual joy. For those that do not accept God's freedom(yes, he really used the term freedom after all that, something doesn't fit, huh?) there is nothing we humans can do about it and these poor souls will end in hell.

Protestants and catholics (yes, he really blames them a lot), just took the pure and the only true religion and just altered it for personal benefits. The only true religion is the orthodox one, and the only true bible is our bible, the original and pure one. When reading a bible, you should always not interpret it in any form, nor create your own "understandings" of it, that is what lead to the creation of catholicism, protestantism and various other sects. Just ask the priest or any other certified religious "teacher" and he will guide you well.

Oh wow, so people when reading the Bible, you should never ever think about "what can that mean", you should just ask the priest and preferrably an orthodox one about it. He will just say that everything that was here happened literary, even if it's hard to believe it. (Noah's Arch for example)

For people who never heard about Jesus nor the orthodox religion, God will apply a special treatment, he will judge them, by their own religious laws, but if you heard of Jesus and did not accept him in your heart, you will end in hell.

I asked him "but what if one individual is born and raised muslim and during his life, he or she is constantly being told that islam is the best religion and others are wrong, just in the same manner as we are told about orthodoxy", he simply replied "if they heard of Jesus and didn't acccept him, then they will be punished". Really? When hearing about "Jesus" you must automagically believe in him?

In our class, I'm glad to say that I'm not the only atheist/agnostic/irreligious, after that class we discussed about this issue and how brainwashed are the minds of pupils in romanian schools. Then another two girls approached and criticized us for having a really wrong point of view and how religion is something to enjoy and we probably just suffer and are sad without god and other jada-jada. The thing is, most kids will fall for it and I wouldn't promote this kind of thinking in our country, furthermore in our schools (not to mention we also have protestants in our class and they just needed to hear him criticizing the religion they were born with and thus their lifestyle).

For now, that's it, I'll try to add more as more "interesting" things are being told. What do you think?

[Kimonio]

Protestants and catholics (yes, he really blames them a lot), just took the pure and the only true religion and just altered it for personal benefits. The only true religion is the orthodox one, and the only true bible is our bible, the original and pure one.

I would like to stop him right there on the "original and pure one" and bring up a few novels.

Qur'an
Torah
Talmud
Midrash
Responsa
Zohar
Tanakh
Dead Sea Scrolls
Genova 1599 Bible

What do all these have and speak of? The messiah. The rapture. Adam and Eve. What is the difference?

For the Qur'an I cannot say, I am currently dissecting it. It appears to be a blunt version of the Bible. Like how the Bible has a whole chapter about Adam and one of Eve, and three of the first sin? No, just looking at the first bit, Qur'an starts by praising Allah/God, and then they just lay it all right there like "Adam was the first man, Eve was made from his rib, God told them do not eat the fruit, but they did, and because of that they are cursed".

The Dead Sea Scrolls are an ancient text dating back to well around the Hebrew era, and have quite a few tales. I would like for you to ask your priest about Lilith, have him give you scripture mentioning her, ask him her origin, and to show it in the Bible. He can't, there is no mention of Lilith except in a very vague scripture of man and woman in Genesis, and a verse in Psalms, which refers to her as the mother of demons...but who is she? The only way to learn this is to read other religious tomes. Of course, that's a sin, you can't do that...I dunno, you're being taught the watered-down mess.

Basically he's contradicting himself a bit. "Protestants and catholics just took the pure and the only true religion and just altered it for personal benefits." Well, what about Orthodox Catholicism? Orthodox Judaism? Those aren't the purest. Those aren't the oldest. You know what the purest one is? The one that was not torn up and put together like a puzzle? Judaism. The Hebrew religion, but even that has it's flaws...so what is the story?

I can't be certain, but by looking at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, they all share the same storyline...the catch is that while Christianity says Christ is the Lord and Savior, Islam says he is a prophet. And Judaism? Apparently he was a false messiah, and they're still waiting.

I'm willing to hear what he has to say. But I would like for you to ask him this: In any manner, does the Christian religion control, or promote harmful acts, and in what way are they justified if so? Why are these acts justified for such? Do these harmful acts committed not show a strong flaw in the faith?


But yeah, definitely ask him about Lilith. 9/10 Christians I have asked don't even know who she is.

Also fun fact, if you take the geographical names and terms given in Genesis 1,2, and 3, you can place an approximate location of the Garden of Eden on the world map, along the ridge of the Ural(sp?) mountains and part of Turkey, Iran, and Iraq.

[#4715]

It is so bizarre to me that you have to take a class about believing in a religion, regardless of whether or not you have any form of belief in the religion they discuss.

[Venexis]

An basic understanding of major religions goes a long way toward understanding how and why the world is in the state it is. Whether you're religious or not, you've almost certainly been affected by it in some way... A lot have interesting aspects to them, and I consider it a plus to be able to associate and maintain friendly contact with individuals of different religions by educating myself concerning customs and practices.

Even if you're not into the whole understanding thing, a religion class is a great way to hear about the other side of the argument, since it's probably not something you'd have a lot of experience if you were born atheist or into a family of a different faith. Know your enemy and all that, it's a lot easier to debunk something when you can predict and refute the points an opponent will bring up.

It's what you make of it. Might seem stupid now but even if that's the case, it's still easy marks.

[#4715]

I understand the importance of having a basic grasp since a lot of cultures' basic world views are based on their religions. However, a lot of the things Bogdan described makes it sound like it is taken to the extreme.

[Kimonio]

en if you're not into the whole understanding thing, a religion class is a great way to hear about the other side of the argument, since it's probably not something you'd have a lot of experience if you were born atheist or into a family of a different faith.

This. I do research on Islam secretly. Bible Belt is a scary place.

[Bogdan]

I would like to point out that while yes, knowing about each others religions and stuff it's something nice, no we are not doing that here. Here the only religion that is "taught" is Christian Orthodox (the confesion that is popular in countries like Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, etc). Since the age of 7 (when we usually start school), till today we have to take that one class in which we are told how great Orthodoxy is and how others are not. Marks are not serious at all, everyone pases with 10/10 at the end of the semester. The thing is, most kids will fall for what is taught there (if you browse my older posts, I myself was a case) and it's serious. Alternatives are private schools which are rare and expensive (btw the only 2 private are in my city and are both christian (protestant, but still)) and parents who refuse relgion classes are rare cases (most of them refuse religion because they are not orthodox, the ones who simply refuse it are really criticised (not like the others are not)). If you care to look a bit more at the topic when I post updates, then probably perhaps you will understand what the problem is and why we should tell people that's something that isn't good and will not make your children be "good people" or behave better. I had for instance a classmate (glad he left tho) that was christian orthodox, but didn't behave good at all. Made fun of everyone and everything, disturbed classes, totally destroyed his hotel room when went in a class trip and furthermore just laughing at how "Y'all idiotic atheists go to hell". This is something that must be changed.
(No, I'm not asking to stop believing, I'm asking to start letting people have, develop and use logic)

[Doram]

Ok, first off, there is a HUGE difference between the way most people approach Religion (and the rest of life, actually, but we'll talk religion here). There are really only 2 camps. People who want to think about things, and people who don't.

People who don't want to think about things will go to class, memorize what they are told, parrot it back, and be perfectly fine with that, for the rest of their lives. "Religion" for them is a pile of facts that they stack in a corner of their mind, and let it sit. They may or may not do what their religion teaches, or even understand it in any meaningful way. They may or may not feel the need to defend that religion to other people that criticize or do not understand. But it is a static thing for them. Their religion is well defined and "just there, eternal and perfect forever". The deepest part of that problem is that static things tend to get stagnant, especially when the world changes around them, and they do not change with it. The people who do not think about things can get stuck, and that position can make them extremely combative if the difference between the world they expect and the world they see becomes too big. Thus Westborough Baptist Church.

Now, you have now marked yourself as one of the other group. You like to think about things. Good. Gods, and Goddesses all, help us, we need more of you. The ability to think and adapt to situations around you is how we managed to evolve our way from treetops to the top performing lifeform on this planet. There's good and bad in there, but at least we're trying, and you cannot find right answers without at least asking questions. So, good on ya, mate. Now. Let's see what we can accomplish with a little thinking.

I do not like what Christianity has done with Jesus' teachings. You want to see me mad, read this rant.: show

I like to think about things, and when I looked at the Roman Catholic religion I studied faithfully for the entirety of my schooling years (13 years of religion class...), here's what I saw. I saw the Christians (and I mean ALL Christians) doing a whole host of things that seem to completely stomp all over what Jesus said, including taking a dump on it, and whipping some other people for some blood and vomit for good measure, and then forcing them to stir it up into a nice little stew of horror show.

• Example 1: The Crusades. Let's see. Take an army of faithful zombies (from the first case up there - not thinking), and send them off to kill all heathens. That sounds like what Jesus would want me to do, right. Yeah. That's what my priest told me. You think Muslims are unique with their "Jihad"? Nope. Christians mastered the "Holy War" centuries ago.
  Killing millions - check. For God! - check. Destroy and steal stuff! - check. Actually, the Muslims could learn a thing or two from the Christians on that last one. They destroy pretty good, but they don't steal heathen goodies enough.......... /sarcasm
• Example 2: The Dark Ages. And that's only the political side of things, add to the pile all of the violently negative pressure they put on the scientific community - see Galileo, Copernicus, et al. Yeah. We think that what you are working on means that our God is wrong, so we're going to denounce your work, jail you as much as possible, torture you whenever we can, and make sure that nobody agrees with you, no matter how right you might happen to be. And then there's The Inquisition. Let's make it an organization-wide program that disagreeing with us IN ANY WAY is punishable by public torture, professional destruction, and death. There's credible evidence that the primary cause of the Dark Ages was the Catholic Church.
• Example 3: Proselyzation and opression. Not to mention horrible things that different Christian factions did to each other. Catholics versus regular Christians. Orthodox versus mainstream. Protestants versus all comers. History is rife with people being viciously mean to one another "in God's name", and Christians have some of the biggest examples of this. Oh, and let's bring up native peoples while were at it. Culture lost to history? You might just have Christianity to thank for it. Let's just barge in everywhere in the world, and FORCE perfectly happy people to stop believing what they believe, and start believing what you believe. That sounds like a good idea. Thankfully, in several cases, the people were so happy with their religion that they actually REFUSED (*cheers loudly*), and the best the Christians could do was change a few words, and make all their gods into saints, and put a Christian veneer on what is essentially the same religion. See Voodoo. Of course, if you refuse too hard, out comes the sword - see Crusades for more info.
• Example 4: Original Sin, and a bunch of other nasty stuff that makes life a living hell. Ok. Sex is Evil. Masturbation is Evil. Wanting things is Evil. THINKING about wanting things is EVIL. Thinking about other religions is EVIL (what do you think most people of the cloth do with the first Commandment?). Pretty much everything you could possibly do is evil, so sit there curled up in a tiny ball and don't move or think, and shout "God is awesome!" as loudly and as often as you can. Except when you go and make lots of babies, LOTS of babies. But don't enjoy it. Sex is bad, remember? But do it as often as you can, with no protection whatsoever, because that's evil too. And, umm, give me as much money as you can, I need to line my churches with gold, and that stuff ain't cheap. Sure, we'll give some bums food once a week, but we need to make sure there's a 15 foot statue in the front of the building carved by a master artist, and a couple of other really big ones inside. That ain't cheap either. So, let's make sure you are just at the edge of being able to afford living, cuz misery is good for the soul, so let's make sure you are as miserable as humanly possible.
• And I won't even get into: Priests and little boys. Priests and nuns. Misogyny and oppression of women. And it isn't just Catholics that do that stuff, just so you know.

So, as you can see, we have somehow gone from "Treat your neighbor as yourself." to "Treat your neighbor as a vile devil and persecute him into the ground, oh, and make yourself as miserable as possible too, otherwise you don't get to go to heaven." Catholics get a major chunk of this, but it echoes through all of Christianity. So, in my opinion. Jesus was one of the greatest men in history, and somehow his followers have dedicated themselves to being the worst people ever. *shrugs* Maybe it was because they listen to Jesus' Dad more than him, because a close reading of the Old Testament reveals Yaweh being a bit of a ♥♥♥♥ to EVERYBODY. Don't get me wrong. I have no real problems with any of the commandments except the first one. Good work there. But there's also a bunch of "I came, I saw, I conquered, because God." in there. Islam seems to have picked up on the dickishness of the two previous religions and put their own spin on it too, so maybe I should expand the umbrella to all Abrahamic religions. *runs out of venom* *sighs*

That being said, some people have ignored all the intervening bull$hit and figured out how to be good people, while still being Christian (like my sister who created her own brand of Christianity that we call Christian Essentialism). I applaud their efforts. I personally was looking for a little more than that, like a God/Goddess that had the cojones to actually step into my life and DO something BENEFICIAL. That's why I'm Pagan. Also, I can look a god in the eyes, and say "♥♥♥♥ you. No." and be perfectly fine with it - also a perk (for anyone listening appreciatively, it helps to have a few Gods you are on good terms with first before you try that, though - finding good Gods to work with can be hard work sometimes).

A Comparative Religions class in college can help with getting a better view of other religions, and it is usually assumed that you have been indoctrinated enough by that point that it is not truly dangerous to your soul to learn those things at that point (Hah!). Just bide your time, and wait. The good stuff is down the line.
If you really can't wait, for a quick rundown, here's a bunch of Wikipedia pages to read, and while not definitive, will certainly give you a good start.

• We all know about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, right? Maybe not. Not sure what I mean by Abrahamic? Well, read on then.
• Buddhism is nice, though there is some wonky bits there too. I'm not sure that complete denial/oblibion of self (Nirvana) is necessarily a good thing, but that's just me. As far as letting go of "because God", they did a really good job of that, as far as I know.
• Hinduism is similar, but has a really nice way of being holstic about life.
• Being a gamer and Japanophile (like weaboo, but without the obnoxious), I like Shinto a lot, too. Honor and Family are important. Fight for what you believe is right (and not in a dickish way). There's a lot to like there. Samurai life sounds pretty good, all in all.
• And for everything else, there's Paganism (which technically includes Shinto, Hinduism, and the amalgam of the Chinese folk religion). It wraps up all of the classical religions (see Mythology), and some modern ones, into the current working models, and is a term so nebulous that scholars are trying to figure out how to stop using it. But, if you are looking in that direction, this is the point at which you start. Frankly, for most practitioners of some shade of paganism, all this mostly boils down to a "start from scratch" process whereby you just choose or even create a new religious/spiritual/moral framework for yourself. Be careful, because there is a lot of non-serious ("fluffy bunny") and distracted/missed-the-point ("New Age Yuppy Pagan ♥♥♥♥") stuff out there. If you want my opinion, just ask, I'm only a PM away, but most of all, listen to your gut. If it doesn't feel right, put it down and try something else. One of the things I like the most about modern paganism is that it is all about you finding a religion that works for you. Whatever you need in that aspect of your life, there's a belief system out there that can help.

[Harmless]

Ooh, I like Shintoism.

But yeah, I'm sorta glad Catholics lost power in the War of the Reformations and all of that. Honestly a lot of what Doram has said has been nagging my mind for some time. I often poked fun at it too, though.

[Bogdan]

Wee update, today's topic: homosexuals.
So apparently we may have sexual education in schools by next year (which is a good idea in my opinion), but can you guess the one person that didn't agree and just screamed out loud in class that he prays to god for us not do have it?

OK, from his point of view, we will not learn anything useful in that class, but instead:

It will encourage sexual acts before marriage (Bog's note: I don't think it will, I think it's already pretty popular, I think will teach idiots how to protect themselves from diseases or pregancies or how to react if they by any chance any of those happen (thus may even discourage some)) and furthermore and the most important part, it will encourage homosexual relationships and may even convert some of you to a gay life style. As I heard, this may happen with new generations, not you so you're protected from those blasphemies by god, but pray for your children, younger brothers and sisters, nephews and so on not to turn gay just because of our sick school system. Unlike some people claim, it's not scientifically proven that homosexualism is genetic, it is just a matter of choice for those who not listen to God's word. To be honest, I don't believe any science man ever said that, but instead the European Parlament, who is rather full of homosexuals itself, want to create chaos among our children's mind.