Thoughts on living right.

[Harmless]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to just blindly take revenge in my own hands or to do what I can to inflict the harshest penalties. But if we don't do anything and simply talk to the already broken, or let them live a few secluded years in Prison only to release them, then how is that stopping them?

[*Emelia K. Fletcher]

here comes a big diatribe with offensive opinions



<EmeliaK|goestobed> doram's topic is literally just "pacifism and optimism and hiding literally everything is the correct way to live"
<-> You are now known as EmeliaK
<EmeliaK> it's not the most terrible thing ever but this is my issue with it:
<EmeliaK> if everyone somehow managed to abide by this, you'd have a lot of people a) being too content b) knowing any negative issues they have don't have a place in the real world
<BY> Glad to know that I'm not the only one critizing this.
<EmeliaK> also it's going to eventually end up being detrimental because there's no way in hell anyone can even pretend to be that perfect
<EmeliaK> and if you try that's going to ♥♥♥♥ up because the alternative is it succeeding in any way
<EmeliaK> can you imagine a person who only ever reflects positivity
<BY> It'd be a sick person
<BY> And a sick world, if it'd be like this
<EmeliaK> "For animals, who have neither language nor advanced logic and understanding, violence is their only tool"
<EmeliaK> hahahah
<EmeliaK> hhahhhahahhaahahhahahhh
<EmeliaK> hhhahhhhhhhh
<EmeliaK> wow
<BY> This world is simply made for imperfection.
<Raz> well i mean animals do have their own language
<Raz> and it works pretty well
<BY> Yeup
<EmeliaK> "Now, as we are descended from the animal kingdom, we have inherited a bit of this mentality,"
<EmeliaK> that one phrase is both extremely problematic and also basically shuts down doram's own argument
<EmeliaK> mentality is core
<lordpat> I dislike that mentality
<EmeliaK> you try to change your own mentality and you are going to have an extremely terrible time
<lordpat> that mentality of being the martyr
<lordpat> of taking anything
<EmeliaK> "HOWEVER, we ARE possessed of more advanced tools to understand and solve our problems, like self awareness, reason and logic, and empathy, much less language"
<EmeliaK> we are under the impression that we are blessed with these
<EmeliaK> and that they are somehow give us a place far above anything else
<EmeliaK> they're just concepts
<EmeliaK> everything has concepts
<EmeliaK> we're not the ♥♥♥♥ ascended people of the universe
<BY> Our one big advantage is the possibility to draw, or rather to write.
<EmeliaK> "You can spend your time being constructive in some way (go to school, go to work, help somebody), or you can spend your time being violent in some way (be mean or grumpy in any way, try to get revenge on someone in any way, sabotage, manipulate, or otherwise oppress someone)"
<EmeliaK> OMISSION
<EmeliaK> I JUST LOVE IT
<BY> This way we maintained to continue our progress, without losing everything after like three generations again
<EmeliaK> WHEN PEOPLE PHRASE SOMETHING TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING SOUNDS LIKE THE ONLY POSSIBLE SITUATION
<EmeliaK> WOW
<EmeliaK> WOW I JUST LOVE IT
<EmeliaK> NEEDLESS TO SAY THAT CONSTRUCTIVITY IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY SITUATIONAL
<lordpat> what's that fallacy?
<lordpat> falce dicotomy?
<lordpat> .g false dicotomy
<B-O-T> lordpat: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FalseDichotomy
<EmeliaK> i seriously want to just go through doram's post and pick out every single part
<Venexis> Can I just say that I don't think Doram's argument was supposed to be taken 100% literally, but also that it's definitely a good thing (in my opinion at least) that you guys are challenging it
<EmeliaK> but then i'd look like an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
<EmeliaK> Ven the problem is
<EmeliaK> Doram seems to be taking it 100% literally
<EmeliaK> as in he is preaching it
<EmeliaK> 100% literally
<EmeliaK> and he has expressed he is following it
<BY> For me it often looks like he's blind for a great amount of things, though
<EmeliaK> 100% literally
<BY> But I can't be bothered to join these discussions
<EmeliaK> there's a word for that kind of blindness
<EmeliaK> optimism
<BY> That's not it
<Venexis> Yeah, I know, but who are we to say it doesn't work for him?
<Venexis> Fact is, it just won't for an overwhelming majority of the world
<BY> I'm talking about the psychological reaction one can watch, when you tell yourself the same thing over and over again, until you believe it to the extend that you withdraw other options.
<BY> Or short
<EmeliaK> that's called deluding yourself
<Venexis> It would be illogical, with that in mind, to attempt to convince everyone. I don't think that's his intention, because Doram's a pretty smart man who likely realizes that
<BY> Deluding was the word I missed, though
<EmeliaK> Ven the entire tone of his argument has been "NO LET ME SHOW YOU WHY THIS VIEWPOINT IS RIGHT"
<Venexis> But it's definitely great to see how he's being challenged, maybe I'm just a sucker for critical thinking lul
<Venexis> Hm
<BY> I see what you mean, MK
<BY> But I don't think it was his main intention
<EmeliaK> honestly i feel like his image as the infallible smartman is kind of a stupid ideal
<EmeliaK> he is plenty fallible
<BY> I never saw him as that, though.
<EmeliaK> the main reasons we listen to him over others is because he's bothered to say more and because he's a Big Adult Who Knows Things
<FrozenFire> We aren't always right anyway
<Venexis> Alright, even just skimming through his first post with that perspective you mentioned, MK, it's pretty obvious that it can be interpreted like that
<BY> That's what I believed to think, MK. But I soon noticed (It was somewhere around 2013) that he's doing the same mistakes like everyone.
<EmeliaK> Ven lemme just point something out
<FrozenFire> Also I do agree that Doram is a clever guy, but I don't see any reason to believe in what everything he says though
<EmeliaK> Doram is pretty okay at doing this stuff
<EmeliaK> therefore he would likely recognize that a title is meant to sum up the topic
<Venexis> Honestly I'd ask him how he meant it to be interpretted, because I totally see why it gives that impression but at the same time there's a rift in my mind that makes it tough to believe he's actually expecting to convince everyone beyond any doubt
<BY> So while he's definitely having a point once in a while, you should also consider disregarding his facts once in a while, as they're simply not correct
<EmeliaK> because otherwise people get falsely led
<EmeliaK> Ven you are assuming he is able to completely straddle and observe every viewpoint
<EmeliaK> he is not
<EmeliaK> nobody is
<Venexis> Hah, good catch.
<EmeliaK> either way his title is "Living right"
<EmeliaK> that is a bold, definite and completely idiotic statement
<EmeliaK> because in someone's head they are going to read that as "This is the topic where I tell you how you should live"
<EmeliaK> the subtitle does not help
<EmeliaK> that is why I am of the opinion that his argument is meant to be taken more literally than figuratively/morally
<Venexis> Fair
<EmeliaK> now that my ten billion word diatribe is over back to being someone who makes snarky comments and ♥♥♥♥
<BY> I came to the point that I think the true perfection lies within the imperfection. We wouldn't know what's good, if we wouldn't know what's bad.
<EmeliaK> actually that's a lie i can't switch moods that quickly
<BY> It's awesome to see everyone doing his own thing, going his own path.
<lordpat> as I said, I don't like the martyr mentality
<EmeliaK> i am extremely good at appearing completely expressionless though
<EmeliaK> like my default expression is the poker face
<lordpat> because it is a dangerous mentality that can lead to a lot of suffering
<EmeliaK> i am unhealthily concealing
<FrozenFire> The real way to live right: Live in your way.
<BY> aye
<BY> Hm. I wonder if I should actually reply to that topic.
<BY> It is an interesting one.
<EmeliaK> also i've begun becoming paranoid about dysthymia because i feel the _ TEENAGE ATTACHMENT TO DARK THINGS _
<EmeliaK> it's more likely just that my personality has progressed to the point where by default in a social environment i am going to be just blank
<EmeliaK> that's an okay personality in my own dumb opinion
<FrozenFire> You seem like a very critical person, MK.
<EmeliaK> i am
<FrozenFire> You criticise everything, everyone
<FrozenFire> And this is good.
<EmeliaK> correct
<EmeliaK> well only on the first statement
<EmeliaK> second one's situational
<-- Xzyj (Xzyj@could.suyo.be) has quit (Client exited)
<FrozenFire> It depends actually
<FrozenFire> It can be bad
<EmeliaK> criticism is completely unwarranted in some cases
<EmeliaK> i just happen to be someone who instinctively does it
<FrozenFire> But I believe that everyone should have a point of view of the world
<EmeliaK> unless it's an environment where i know i don't want to criticise things
<EmeliaK> e.g. art
<FrozenFire> lawl
<lordpat> I also criticize everything
<lordpat> but I don't have the balls to tell people out
<EmeliaK> the exception to that is music because i entitle myself to criticising others
<lordpat> I admire you for that MK
<EmeliaK> trust me, if you had my personality you would begin to just reflect internally on how much of a douche you are by default to other people
<lordpat> hmmm
<Raz> doram is a pink bob omb
<FrozenFire> Sometimes, though, being critical is not the best way to react
<EmeliaK> it's not so much i'm a perfectly critical person as i lack tact and grace but i can convey my point well enough that most of the basic maliciousness is lost
<EmeliaK> either way when people start talking about how i act i become extremely interested because i just LOVE hearing about myself
<lordpat> I see
<EmeliaK> deep down everyone's most favourite topic is themselves in some form
<EmeliaK> or at least that is my hyperbolic opinion
<FrozenFire> You narcissistic. :3
<EmeliaK> we're all narc in some way



that begins to sum up my raw thoughts gracelessly, at least

[Doram]

your moral is "pacifism and optimism will somehow stop all evils in the world"

Close. Choose pacifism and optimism in your own life, and encourage everyone around you to do the same, and we have a good chance of collectively stopping all the evils of the world. No somehow. This how.

Though I will say this. Pacifism has gotten a bad rap over the years as meaning being passive, uninvolved, and potentially insensitive. I counter that with the examples of the greatest pacifists in history, like Ghandi and Mother Theresa. They fought plenty. They fought hunger. They fought disease. They fought hopelessness. And they fought it with caring, giving, and encouraging support. But they fought. You do not need violence to be able to fight. You do not need to give up fighting to give up violence. I use the word pacifism for what it was intended to mean: anti-violence. By all means, fight for what you believe in. Just use something other than a gun or other abuse to do it. Use your words. Use your feelings. Build things up. Build people up. Use your actions to create something good, and that is fighting all the same. This is the method that I am talking about for actually being able to accomplish all of that.

---

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to just blindly take revenge in my own hands or to do what I can to inflict the harshest penalties. But if we don't do anything and simply talk to the already broken, or let them live a few secluded years in Prison only to release them, then how is that stopping them?

Well, since part of this is being addressed in the abstract, and therefore in the ideal, I can address this from that point of view. The concept of prison, in its ideal state, would not allow such a thing to happen, since the first thing that would happen upon being put in jail would be undergoing a deep and thorough psychological evaluation to determine what the prisoner's needs are, and how to classify them into varying levels of assistance during your time there, and those determined to be broken would not be allowed to leave at all, for any reason (except possibly figuring out how to become not broken).

Obviously, we have a LONG way to go to get there from where we are now, but that doesn't mean that we cannot do anything. In fact, that means that it is all the more important to start working on it now. Literally, our problems will never be solved, unless we try to solve them. Throwing up your hands and saying "The system is broken. Oh, well." does not solve anything. (Not that I am saying anyone here is doing that, just in general.) And talking is where all of that starts. We created language. We should use it.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.
~Commonly attributed to Edmund Burke

---

EDIT:
And, yes. I have no problem at all with being challenged. And no, I do not think I or my opinions are perfect in every way. Bring it. If I'm wrong, teach me.
Also, I have more to say, but I have to get to work. bbl.

[-BY]

I personally came to the point, I can truthfully say that I see the true perfection within the imperfection. We wouldn't know what's good, if we wouldn't know what's bad either. While it's ok to show a direction, or guide as you say, which you can use to question your current way of thinking, it's a dangerous thing to embellish your own believes up to the point, it starts feeling like you want to actually convince people to believes, I'd personally see as delusion rather, than actual fact... Actually. Just saw MK ninjaing me. I'm done then. Another ninja by Doram. Let's continue then. Or not. I'm done here.

[lordpat]

I have to ask you Doram, do you think a problem such as nazism could have been fixed without violence?

[*Emelia K. Fletcher]

<EmeliaK> "Pacifism has gotten a bad rap over the years as meaning being passive, uninvolved, and potentially insensitive"
<EmeliaK> i don't care about that
<EmeliaK> pacifism in the sense of non-war is great
<EmeliaK> pacifism in the sense of inaction is horrendous
<superm63creator> lol at him citing historical examples. "It worked for these guys, it'll totes work for you"
<EmeliaK> blindly doing something and hoping everyone else sees some metaphorical light is terrible bad dumb
<EmeliaK> some days i feel like i should get someone to just moderate everything i say
<EmeliaK> but then i'd get angry at them for filtering out what i really mean
<EmeliaK> so that kinda defeats itself
<EmeliaK> i am under the irrational delusion that conveying your actual meaning is all-important when maybe sometimes it's better to just lie a little
<BY> I did kind of summarize my thoughts about his statements in two lines, though.
<EmeliaK> something something reality in its sunday best
<superm63creator> Dor just made an edit.
<superm63creator> "And, yes. I have no problem at all with being challenged. And no, I do not think I or my opinions are perfect in every way. Bring it. If I'm wrong, teach me."
<EmeliaK> we have been doing this for THREE PAGES
<lordpat> I really want to ask him
<lordpat> if he feels a problem such as nazism could ahv ebeen fixed without violence
<Raz> then ask him
<Raz> doram doesn't bite
<EmeliaK> if you think your opinions are not perfect in every way WHY DO YOU KEEP THE APPEARANCE THAT YOU DO
<BY> Remember what I said about deluding? I actually meant it.
<superm63creator> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<superm63creator> dang it by
<BY> Sowwy

[Supershroom]

I have to ask you Doram, do you think a problem such as nazism could have been fixed without violence?

Sadly no

because they've started the war by themselves

Anyways, the more I'm trying to be friendly to everyone and avoid giving insults back (*cough* damn little pubescent sister *cough*), I see how hard it is indeed, but I'm willed to learn. However, I'm afraid other people don't try much if I tell them of that, if they're even willed to listen at all, once I've tried to tell my sister to be more quiet and less foul, and all I've got was a loud ♥♥♥♥♥ LEAVE ME ALONE.

Sure, you can always think you know it better than the "others". Nonetheless the feeling of being offended can never be totally ignored and put out, and the downside of constantly thinking "I'm better, you n00b" is snottiness and unability to listen.

Trying to break up a cycle of offending words and meanness by offering a proposal to make peace and behave better leads to a huge disappointment if it's ignored or if you even get malice for that. And then you think "how the ♥♥♥♥ shall this ever stop with this ♥♥♥".

[Harmless]

Well, since part of this is being addressed in the abstract, and therefore in the ideal, I can address this from that point of view. The concept of prison, in its ideal state, would not allow such a thing to happen, since the first thing that would happen upon being put in jail would be undergoing a deep and thorough psychological evaluation to determine what the prisoner's needs are, and how to classify them into varying levels of assistance during your time there, and those determined to be broken would not be allowed to leave at all, for any reason (except possibly figuring out how to become not broken).

I think the problem is the fact that even in its ideal state, Prison doesn't handle the issue of making sure that they're incapable, or have absolutely no willing of doing that thing again. They know they're going to be released within a fix date. Why should they care what is said to them during that time? All they have to do is wait and mindlessly nod when asked questions.

An ideal prison would only let them out once they have actually redeemed themselves, not when a bunch of words are stuffed into their head. An ideal prison would actually remove the criminal inside them, not bottle it up and try to fruitlessly change their mind.

Obviously, we have a LONG way to go to get there from where we are now, but that doesn't mean that we cannot do anything. In fact, that means that it is all the more important to start working on it now. Literally, our problems will never be solved, unless we try to solve them. Throwing up your hands and saying "The system is broken. Oh, well." does not solve anything. (Not that I am saying anyone here is doing that, just in general.) And talking is where all of that starts. We created language. We should use it.

We also created our own Government, (correct me if I'm wrong) Capitalism, and improved upon many existing ideas and scaled up our technology, leading us to being one of the most well known countries in the world. And yet we can't even handle internal poverty and crime?

We should use language, but we should also start using some of that technology and government authority to start finding better solutions. We should use EVERYTHING at our disposal, especially if language isn't going to help us.

[nin10mode]

I guess we're doing this then.

Technology and government are very powerful tools, yes.

Language is what gives purpose to these tools, though. We search for cures for cancer and other diseases and sicknesses because a there are massive movements to fight against them. People are aware of it. Segregation and racial discrimination in America has ended directly because of some decisions made and some laws created by the government. There were voices that urged it to, and it wasn't its own.

Using language isn't inherently peaceful though; someone will always be offended. This much is clear especially with what happened with Charlie Hebdo recently. Mother Theresa's anti-contraceptive campaign, as minor as it is, offends me and makes my relationship with my parents all the more troublesome with differing views and an "outstanding person's view" to back theirs. The new pope's stance on homosexuality most definitely offends devout Christians and other old-school religious folk, as wrong as we think their point of view is. Prisoners will be offended when asked their mental state (surprise, surprise), and as inconsiderate as some of us may be towards their very existence, they're still being offended. There are people right here that seem to be offended by what was supposed to be a simple thread of advice for two or three individuals.

There are nonviolent action that are still extreme and can bring about change; this is true. Their extremity makes them inherently offensive to someone though. The past two weeks, I refused to go to school and it took seven school days for my parents to finally understand that I yearned something, and the magnitude of my desire. We're still offending each other though. I'm offending their idea of "with age comes wisdom and respect" and they're still offending all of my ideas, and simply giving me the space and silence that I desire.

A world filled with content and peace is not actually a happy one; to me, it looks more like an emotionless one. That's not what Doram is striving for though, I don't think. He wants a non-violent world; nonviolent in actions and words, as is apparent given the purpose of this thread. Still, words will always hurt, and that's why I think your ideal is impossible. We've created language, but we've included instructions on how to abuse it in the manual. I want to be a content creator eventually, and if I do achieve my dream, I'll certainly be striving to shape opinions, support movements, etc. I won't be afraid to offend a few people along the way though, nor has anyone that has made an impact in history, and nor will anyone else that ever hopes to change the world -- even slightly -- including you, Doram.

If language cannot hope to be truly peaceful, we cannot hope to bring about a peaceful world by using it.

[Doram]

All right, several things. I am AGAINST inaction. I am not saying anything about bottling up emotions at all - for normal or broken people. That is unhealthy, no matter which way you look at it.

---

I think the problem is the fact that even in its ideal state, Prison doesn't handle the issue of making sure that they're incapable, or have absolutely no willing of doing that thing again. They know they're going to be released within a fix date. Why should they care what is said to them during that time? All they have to do is wait and mindlessly nod when asked questions.

An ideal prison would only let them out once they have actually redeemed themselves, not when a bunch of words are stuffed into their head. An ideal prison would actually remove the criminal inside them, not bottle it up and try to fruitlessly change their mind.

I did have to cut that short because I had to go to work, but yes, that is pretty much what I was trying to say. Ideally, prison would just be forced therapy, and it would not be measured in time, but in genuine improvement.What that would require is a MUCH better understanding of psychology than we currently have, and the desire to put it to work on the people who need it most: the criminal and the unstable.

Yes, people already get released for "good behavior" by determining what is desired of them and parroting it back without any meaning. That is one of the major flaws in the system today. The release boards are asking a list of standard questions, getting the answers they want, and stamping the "Ok, let this one out" card. This should be handled by skilled psychologists whose goal is making sure that the criminal understands that they did wrong, and HOW to not do it again in the future.

---

Also, yes, we're shading into the Ills of Society rant here, but the Nazi regime was created through hundreds of layered issues that amounted to him successfully convincing the entirety of the country of Germany that A) they have been treated wrongly by the entirety of the rest of the world, and B) that the best way to deal with that is to go out there and conquer the whole of it. It is clearly an extreme example, but a good one, where a lot of little hurts built up and spiraled the ♥♥♥♥ out of control. Each of those issues could have been handled better, and yes, had those been addressed properly in the first place, Hitler would have been shouting to an empty room, and not remembered by history at all, simply another crazy person in a world full of them.

Could it have been fixed without violence? Before he rose to power, yes. After, clearly not. It took an unconscionable amount of violence to achieve what we did, and that, for the most part, amounted to mostly bloody minded self defense. The US wanted no part of it, in fact, until Japan brought the fight to us by attacking Pearl Harbor, and when we finished the war, we did not go for complete annihilation of the German people, just a serious and temporary neutering.

---

Ok, there is a huge difference between delusion and perspective, and I am encouraging the latter. Delusion is ignoring the facts that are inconvenient or do not agree, pretending they don't exist, or wishing them away. Perspective is looking at everything, putting it into its proper context, and figuring out what is and is not important. I have not come to the conclusions I have in a vacuum. I have not done this without looking at all the horrors of the world and weighing them each in turn. I have turned a blind eye to none of it, and I am not saying here that it doesn't exist, or it doesn't matter, or it doesn't affect me or my ideals. What I AM saying is that all I, or anyone else who wishes to learn a different and possibly better way of life, needs to do, is focus on several key things here, like the futility of violence, amongst other things, and learn to take an approach that results in constructive and positive actions in your life.

---

And for goodness sake, controlling others is impossible. I have written it a thousand times here. You con control one thing and one thing only in this world. Yourself. Attempting to control others is an illusion at best, and self-defeating at worst. That is one of the reasons that the prison system doesn't work. Like the medical industry, you are just treating the symptom, and not the actual disease (the disease being mental illness and cultural decay). The only possible thing that can be accomplished with other people is through community born of communication. Talk together, agree to do something together, and you can accomplish things together. But it starts with the language, which is why I stress it. If we do not talk to each other about what we are going to do, how can we possibly coordinate group efforts towards a common goal, no matter what that goal is.

---

And in conclusion,

This has been running underneath and above everything that I have said this whole time, giving advice to a large number of our community here. And I labeled this as the final and most important lesson, because it is the culmination of everything that I have written thus far. It is the source of what you have all told me has been good advice, and I have attempted here to express the roots of it, all the way down at the bottom. If you have been reading everything that I have written on this forum thus far, this is the heart of it. It IS how I have been living my life, and I am getting better at it every day. And you all have said a number of times that you agree, and that what I have been saying makes sense and is good. I am not maintaining the appearance that my opinions are perfect in every way, in any other sense than the one in which I have formed them with your assistance and your approval, and am talking about them now as if a good number of you understand and agree, because that is what I have heard. I've been doing this for five years now, and this is officially the most objection I have ever gotten to the advice I have given, short of darthbrower, and only because he and I believe very differently about if it is POSSIBLE to save the world (I believe that it IS possible).

And yes, this is not the end-all and be-all of decision making. Clearly there are fine details to every situation that make them unique, and need to be considered each time fresh. BUT, these are the ideals. These are basic ideas that help define the shape of the custom response that is designed to each unique situation. This is the source. This is the seed at the center of the crystal. This is the basis of my life's work, analyzing society and psychology, discussing it with people, helping people, teaching and learning in equal measure. I am quite serious. And if you look at everything else I have written, you will see bits and pieces of this showing through. And, yes, my goal IS finding THE best way to live, so I would be lying to represent it as anything else. I have worked more than 15 years on this before I got here, and I have now spent 5 years here perfecting it, grinding it against the problems of more than a hundred people all over the world. I apologize for sounding like I have everything figured out, but I do actually feel like I am almost there, and part of the reason I feel that way is because I have done it with all of you and that is what you have told me. Read the responses to the things I have written, here in serious discussion, and elsewhere. Tell me that I have not gotten stamps of approval just about everywhere I turn. And furthermore, I have proof positive that my advice has helped people in a handful of extreme cases where people have told me outright that I have changed their life for the better. So, my opinions may not be perfect in every way, but they do seem to be perfect in most ways, and I figured it was good enough for the next step of presenting the most advanced bits of all this for the final polish. This is not basic advice. This is advanced advice. This is the last lesson that ties everything else together. This is a perspective that you can use at a base level to figure out whatever you need to figure out, and know that you are doing it the best way for the most good.

I will adjust the language here, because it is not finding it's way to the right audience, clearly. I will count this amongst my failures. And that's OK. Maybe it's not time, or maybe the words weren't right after all. Feel free to continue discussing this, but that's my piece.