2016 US Election

Discussion about serious personal, political, educational, or other issues.
Forum rules
This is Serious Discussion. If you want to tell us how your day was or just get some things off your chest, you will find ample opportunity to find a corner to discuss all the good things we see, or reach out to anyone who needs help. Just remember to pay attention to the Principles of Serious Discussion, and link to the source if posting news.
Post a reply

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Bogdan » July 12th, 2016, 12:12 pm

Megar wrote:looks like bernie went against everything he stood for
nice job


Can you explain what made you think that? To me, the current situation looks like an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" scenario. Being both democrats must mean they actually have at least some common objectives and for his objectives to be achieved he needed to make sure that if he can't do them itself, someone else who cans must do it for him and thus he needs to ensure that his voters should go with Hillary in order to achieve a result close to the ideals.

It's clear he has nothing more to say currently as the two candidates for the finals are obvious, so he might try to 'poke' the things in the "right" direction a little bit as long as it's possible, I can't see why you consider he went against his principles.
Image
User avatar
Bogdan
The Legacy

Error contacting Twitter
 
Posts: 770
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 1:06 am
Location: Stanistan

Runouwian Fighter

Thumbs Up given: 39 times
Thumbs Up received: 98 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Raz » July 12th, 2016, 1:52 pm

Everything Bernie stands for also happens to be almost completely similar to Hillary's platform, with a few notable outliers. That's not really everything, is it? He did side with the establishment, but the establishment is better than a racist, lying, awful, and wrong man who will reverse everything Obama has done in his past 8 years. And Bernie knows that.
What Bernie stands for at this point is electing a more progressive senate as a whole and this starts with electing Hillary. Regardless of whether your opinion of Hillary is a liar and her entire platform being false is completely irrelevant to me, she's the best current chance we have for electing exactly what Bernie currently stands for if she does what she says she will.
Not to mention, since it was clear he was losing, he has been actively campaigning against Trump. Guess who's supporters can go on either side? His. So he's trying his best to get all his supporters to go to Hillary's side. Cause it this point, it's not about getting his goals accomplished, it's about what I said in the first sentence and not electing Trump.
And it seems like we're succeeding so far. Good job America, proud of you.

And yes, I'm aware, Jill is an existent candidate. Maybe I'll vote for her in 2020. Currently, the goal is to not elect Trump, and Jill is not the way to do that. With that said, I do hope she gets on the debate stage, but me nor my family is going to help her accomplish that.
Karyete, Master of Civil Conversation
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better

Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
User avatar
Raz
"quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz

Error contacting Twitter
 
Posts: 4432
Joined: July 12th, 2010, 5:48 pm
Location: :-)

Razzian Fighter

Thumbs Up given: 40 times
Thumbs Up received: 367 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Oranjui » July 12th, 2016, 2:35 pm

For reference, comparison of Hillary Clinton's and Bernie Sanders' platforms

He already did poke some things in the right direction. Bernie successfully pushed the Democratic Party to adopt its most progressive platform yet, which, although not completely aligned with his own views (nor my own), is still a pretty huge accomplishment and good enough of a compromise to make his endorsement of Hillary not as ridiculous as it first seems. He has also started a pretty big movement to elect a more progressive House and Senate across the entire country.

But what bothers me the most about the entire situation is that Bernie wasn't even part of the Democratic Party to begin with; he was an independent candidate (aligned fairly closely with the Green Party, but he was never officially associated) running under the banner of the Democratic Party, because in the US's two-party political system, there's currently no feasible way for an independent or third-party candidate to gain any significant traction in a race like this. This election season has brought to light a lot of things about the current state of the US for me, and one of those things is that while I think the Democratic Party is a little bit more reasonable than the Republican Party, neither of them really represents any of my interests at all, and both are far too corrupt and broken for me to ever willingly vote for as they stand right now. I wouldn't say Bernie failed or gave up everything he's fought for, and I know change takes time, but it's a little disturbing to see him throw in the towel on the nomination early after he said he'd keep fighting right up to the convention (which is in 2 weeks). He was always against the "lesser of two evils philosophy" before, but it seems that's reversing now as he's starting to focus all of his efforts on just defeating Trump.

Hillary's the lesser of two evils, and that's about all she amounts to in my eyes. I wouldn't want her to represent me or the US. I'm okay with some aspects of her platform, but I don't particularly care for her attitude, her methods, her arguments (i had to put that somewhere sorry), other aspects of her platform like her environmental and military policies, her non-political affiliations, or (raz is going to hate me for bringing this up, but) her his.tory, including her extremely frequent shifts in "position" on various issues, at all. I can't legally vote in this election so it doesn't matter anyway but I would definitely be on the #NeverHillary train. And when 55% of the country finds her unfavorable, how does that make her at all a good choice for president? Trump is worse, at 60% unfavorable, but I don't get the logic behind electing someone who the majority of the country doesn't really support.

At least I still have Jill :C
User avatar
Oranjui
Minister of Oerhaos

 
Posts: 1914
Joined: June 26th, 2010, 6:49 am

Runolympics 2015 MVP

Thumbs Up given: 388 times
Thumbs Up received: 188 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Raz » July 12th, 2016, 2:58 pm

Oranjui wrote:(raz is going to hate me for bringing this up, but) [b]her his[size=5]

I'm more annoyed at the fact you think I'll hate you for bringing it up. I don't know how many times I have to clarify. I never once said her history wasn't a valid reason for her not being a good candidate. Nor have I ever said she was a good candidate in the first place. I've said numerous times she's the only viable candidate of the (statistically) two because currently she has ideals that are extremely similar to Bernie's, ideals of which I mostly agree with. She just has a lot of problems surrounding her such as the ones mentioned that I have never denied made her a bad candidate. I don't like her. But she's the only one who can logically beat the only other person I dislike more than her. Electing her is a gamble with whether she will truly stick to her current platform and her current promises, or whether she will do what she has done in the past. I understand that. But it's a better gamble than a man who wants to tear this country apart.
When we have a man like Trump having a possibility (an ever decreasing one) at being our president, I truly don't think now is the time to attempt to break the two-party system. After this election, we will have a solid trainwreck to use to support breaking it. But now? We have one of the most awful people in this country possibly about to become our president, as a person who isn't in his 70s, I don't want our future to be ruined because of people too stubborn to work with what they have for the time being.

in case it's still not clear yet to everyone, let me put it in the simplest sentence possible: I don't like Hillary, but I dislike Trump more.


EDIT: Here's Bernie's speech. It's basically what I think. Her being a great president is the only thing that is debatable from what he said. https://berniesanders.com/prepared-rema ... e-clinton/
Karyete, Master of Civil Conversation
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better

Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
User avatar
Raz
"quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz

Error contacting Twitter
 
Posts: 4432
Joined: July 12th, 2010, 5:48 pm
Location: :-)

Razzian Fighter

Thumbs Up given: 40 times
Thumbs Up received: 367 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Doram » July 14th, 2016, 8:05 am

I would like to back this up a step or two, and consider Obama's Presidency, where he DID stand for everything we wanted a President to stand for. What did that get us? Barely 1/4 of what was promised, and that's with TWO terms. Why did that happen? Because The President is the head of only one branch of a three branch system, and the balance of power, that our country's forefathers wisely built in, stopped him from just rampaging across the country changing everything that he wanted to (even though that's what we wanted him to do), and as much as it is protection from a tyrant, it has also protected us from a savior. Unless we want to risk a tyrant's rampage, we will have to suffer a savior's handicap.

Fast forward to our current dilemma. Yes, Hillary is not the best of candidates (I don't like her either), but Trump Must Be StoppedTM, and frankly, even if she DID stand for everything I would like her to stand for, she STILL would face the same challenges Obama has been stymied by, and that is nothing that will change in the next few months. I would rather a mediocre quality three branches muddling through until next chance at fixing all this, than 4 years of two mediocre branches trying to hold back an asshat third branch. If you were frustrated by a Party-Of-No holding back progress, how would you feel about the Congress-Of-No being our only defense against Trump cowboy stomping all over what progress this country HAS made.
Martin Luther King Jr. wrote:Man must evolve, for all human conflict, a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation.
The foundation of such a method is love.
More words from a wise man on activism, terrorism, violence, and peace
User avatar
Doram
Global Moderator

 
Posts: 1524
Joined: February 22nd, 2010, 7:37 pm
Location: Wherever I'm needed.

Cookie
l.m: "For fixing the stuff I break, and for being the best Forum Dad. XOXO <3"

Thumbs Up given: 153 times
Thumbs Up received: 471 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Oranjui » July 14th, 2016, 12:21 pm

I get that she's okay as a compromise candidate, but it feels wrong knowing that that's the exact same thought process ("we can deal with this for now, we'll just wait 4 more years to vote for what we really want because we don't want to spoil this election") that leads to a recursive cycle which keeps us locked into a two-party system, although that's might be a more fundamental problem with our first-past-the-post voting system (some nice videos on that, and more reading). I don't think that it's stubbornness or privilege that makes people decide to vote third-party for the greater good rather than the lesser of two evils, but more of a rejection of that same mediocrity you mentioned essentially having been the status quo for centuries. That's not to say anyone's wrong for voting for who they think is most likely to be able to overcome Trump, but chances are if nobody's mindset changes we'll be stuck in the same situation next election. Change takes time, and we'll have to wait no matter what--for a shift in the makeup of the Congress-Of-No, for society to change its own ideals, for corporate media to start to lose influence, for people to stop fearing the spoiler effect in elections, and so on--but how long are we going to keep forcing ourselves to wait longer, and to keep telling ourselves that we're holding up okay because the tyrant we end up electing isn't as bad as the other one?

Nothing I say right now really matters that much because I don't legally have any say in this stuff until 2018, but Jill Stein is absolutely the most representative out of any of the viable candidates I've seen so far of what I think would be best for the future of the world. I know that my personal ideals, which you probably know a little about if you spend much time on chat, have zero chance of ever coming to light in a country like the US, but Bernie and much more so Jill are huge symbols of progress toward fixing a broken and corrupt society to me. Hillary still doesn't represent any of that in my eyes and I couldn't ever see myself voting for her in good conscience.
User avatar
Oranjui
Minister of Oerhaos

 
Posts: 1914
Joined: June 26th, 2010, 6:49 am

Runolympics 2015 MVP

Thumbs Up given: 388 times
Thumbs Up received: 188 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Thumbs up x2

Postby Doram » July 15th, 2016, 6:50 pm

Ok, ok. I fully understand the bad taste in the mouth that making the lesser-of-two-evils decision creates. Of course, there's an element to this that I rarely bring up, mostly because it requires time that has already been spent. There are two VERY good things that you can do to make this situation better: run for office yourself, or actively work on the campaign of someone that you believe is the BEST candidate. Both of these options are perfectly within the ability of the average citizen, and is, in fact, the way it is supposed to be done.

The biggest problem: If you wanted to do this, you should have started more than 6 months ago, preferably 1 -3 years ago. The second biggest problem: This process works best when EVERYONE is involved (and most people don't know or care that democracy takes work, and actually asks you to DO something to work properly, be that debate, campaign, or vote).

Now, and I say this in all seriousness, if you are old enough to work (14-16 in most places, I believe), you can work on a campaign, and if you truly feel that strongly about Jill, you CAN make a difference by doing exactly that. Some places might require a parent's permission, but that should be your biggest hurdle, and heck, it's a good learning experience to boot, and you may find support from your school as well as others. Generally, this point in the process is pretty late to be getting into it, but I've heard talk about the number of people so fed up with the two party system that they are actively looking elsewhere, and that means that this WOULD still be a good time for Jill to ramp up campaigning. Do some research, and find out where you need to apply, and what the process is. Even if you can't vote yet, you ARE affected by this decision, and there ARE things that you can do.

As usual, if inaction is distasteful, the simplest solution is action.
Martin Luther King Jr. wrote:Man must evolve, for all human conflict, a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation.
The foundation of such a method is love.
More words from a wise man on activism, terrorism, violence, and peace
User avatar
Doram
Global Moderator

 
Posts: 1524
Joined: February 22nd, 2010, 7:37 pm
Location: Wherever I'm needed.

Cookie
l.m: "For fixing the stuff I break, and for being the best Forum Dad. XOXO <3"

Thumbs Up given: 153 times
Thumbs Up received: 471 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Raz » July 15th, 2016, 9:21 pm

Is trump really so bad?
In case you're not quite convinced.

Trump believes Global Warming is "♥♥♥♥" and temperatures are at record lows while scientists point out that April has been the 12th Consecutive hottest month recorded in human history.

  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/418542137899491328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
  • https://weather.com/news/climate/news/record-warmest-april-earth-2016
Trump believes the concept of global warming was created by The Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive despite the fact this can be completely debunked by a single google search.

  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/265895292191248385?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
  • http://www.lenntech.com/greenhouse-effect/global-warming-history.htm
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_climate_change_science#Scientists_increasingly_predict_warming.2C_1970s
Trump believes environmentally friendly light bulbs cause cancer despite all evidence proving the contrary.

  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/258593090107998208?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
  • http://www.ledlights.org/FAQ/Do-LED-Lights-Cause-Cancer.html
  • http://energyblog.nationalgeographic.com/2014/01/08/separating-myth-from-fact-on-cfls-and-leds-five-concerns-addressed/comment-page-1/
Trump argues against renewable energy because Wind Turbines, “Kill Eagles.“

  • https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/239088515122614272
  • http://thedailybanter.com/2016/05/donald-trump-is-against-renewable-energy-because-wind-turbines-kill-eagles/
  • http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/may/31/donald-trump/trump-exaggerates-wind-turbine-eagle-deaths/
Trump believes vaccines cause Autism despite hundreds of studies proving beyond a reasonable doubt that they have no connection.

  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/449525268529815552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
  • http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html
  • http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2014/03/75-studies-that-show-no-link-between.html
  • http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/vaccine-myths-debunked/
  • http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h1961?tw=pl
Trump claimed he was proven right and all the doctors were lying about the connection between vaccines and autism with no context for what he is referring to what so ever.

  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/507158574670573568?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Trump promotes completely debunked ‘War on Cops’.

  • http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-most-mistreated-police
  • http://www.dailydot.com/politics/war-on-cops-charles-gliniewicz/
  • http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/5/18/1527930/–War-on-Cops-leads-to-one-of-the-safest-years-for-cops-on-record
Trump accuses Ted Cruz’s father of aiding in the JFK's assassination.

  • http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/05/trump-ted-cruz-father-222730
Trump believes President Obama forged his birth certificate.

  • http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/06/16/the-worst-of-donald-trumps-media-commentary/204012
  • https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/232572505238433794
  • http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trumps-history-raising-birther-questions-president-obama/story?id=33861832
  • http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/29/so-more-donald-trump.html
  • http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/26/donald-trump-obama-birth-certificate_n_867367.html
Trump believes President Obama is secret Muslim.

  • http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/09/18/from-fox-to-the-campaign-trail-trump-previously/205642
  • http://www.salon.com/2016/06/14/the_birther_candidate_rears_his_ugly_head_donald_trump_implies_president_obama_is_a_muslim_manchurian_candidate_again/
  • http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/29/so-more-donald-trump.html
Trump promotes far-right conspiracy theory (which unbeknownst to Trump started as a joke) claiming that Obama didn’t write his book.

  • http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/06/16/the-worst-of-donald-trumps-media-commentary/204012
  • http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/trump-bill-ayers-wrote-obama-s-book-video
  • http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/03/28/bill_ayers_started_a_joke_that_started_the_whole_word_hyperventilating.html
Trump believes Obamas birth name is ‘Barry Soetoro’.

  • http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2011/04/15/exclusive-donald-trump-rips-into-president-obama-past/
  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/525492766366007296
Trump claims Obama never attended Columbia, while also claiming he did but was a terrible student, while also encouraging his twitter followers to commit felony cyber crimes by “hacking Obama’s college records to check his place of birth.“

  • http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/trump-obama-rejected-50-million-for-birth-records/
  • http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Trump-Obama-Wasnt-Good-Enough-to-Get-into-Ivy-Schools-120657869.html
  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/508194635270062080
Trump implicates President Obama in orchestrating the murder of a Hawaiian State Health Director and staging it as a plane crash.

  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/411247268763676673?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Trump believes 79 year old U.S Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia who died of natural causes was murdered.

  • http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/donald-trump-raises-suspicions-about-justice-scalias-death
Trump demands Obama ground all flights to stop the spread of Ebola and believes The CDC is lying to the public in order to spread Ebola.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/d ... can-border
  • https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/517613167359574016
Trump spreads urban legend from internet chain email about Muslim massacre as fact.

  • https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/19/trump-appears-to-endorse-executing-terrorists-citing-questionable-history
Trump claims persecution saying the IRS is auditing him because he is a Christian.

  • http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/cnn-host-barely-keeps-a-straight-face-after-trump-brags-irs-audits-him-for-being-a-strong-christian/
Trump believes President Obama is aiding terrorists to attack U.S soil.

  • https://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/trump-sinks-to-a-new-low-by-suggesting-obama-helps-terrorists-theres-something-going-on/
Trump believes President Obama is ISIS sympathizer.

  • http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/283564-trump-tweets-story-claiming-secret-memo-shows-obama
  • http://www.salon.com/2016/06/15/trump_tweets_breitbart_article_to_prove_president_obama_is_an_isis_sympathizer/
Trump believes that President Obama somehow directly aided the worst mass shooting in U.S history.

  • http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/donald-trump-s-conspiracy-turn-n591291
  • https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/donald-trump-calls-obama-complicit-in-orlando-shooting-escalating-years-of-anti-muslim-rhetoric/
  • http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/trumps-implication-obama-was-involved-in-the-orlando-shooting/486770/
Fairleigh Dickinson University polls Trump supporters and finds:

77% believe President Obama faked his birth certificate
60% believe global warming is a hoax
50% believe vaccines cause Autism
25% believe President Obama orchestrated the Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting

  • http://view2.fdu.edu/publicmind/2016/160504/


Source: https://redd.it/4t0fsu (I'm not subscribed to this subreddit but I thought this was a nice compilation from an otherwise annoying subreddit.)

and if that's not enough, here's another one with more direct quotes from him: https://redd.it/4nx2rm
Karyete, Master of Civil Conversation
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better

Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
User avatar
Raz
"quite easily the most manly man of all" --Raz

Error contacting Twitter
 
Posts: 4432
Joined: July 12th, 2010, 5:48 pm
Location: :-)

Razzian Fighter

Thumbs Up given: 40 times
Thumbs Up received: 367 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Kimonio » July 15th, 2016, 10:00 pm

Are we posting links to tweets, because I compiled a list in the past
http://pastebin.com/MBi9hPKX
Image

User avatar
Kimonio
Honorary Member

 
Posts: 2114
Joined: September 27th, 2009, 11:06 am
Location: In the absence of nothing

Thumbs Up given: 62 times
Thumbs Up received: 134 times
Top

Re: 2016 US Primaries

Postby Megar » July 24th, 2016, 12:20 am

even Jill Stein is hopping on the #BernieMustDisavow train
i suppose it was pretty clear that bernie was never going to beat the corruption
shame, he'd definitely be better for everyone than hillary
User avatar
Megar
Follower of Razputin

Error contacting Twitter
 
Posts: 2482
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 3:08 am
Location: On the Steel Ball Run

Runolympics 2015 Winners

Thumbs Up given: 42 times
Thumbs Up received: 147 times
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Serious Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group