The Dueling Arena

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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby NanTheDark » October 20th, 2014, 8:48 am

Yeah, I thought Yuri would win. :P

Sorreh Shroom, but your level has a few flaws that frustrated me a little... It starts out awesome, but at a lot of points you break that flow and things become precision platforming. So yeah. The level can't decide on what it wants to be, the way I see it.
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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby Asterocrat » October 20th, 2014, 10:51 am

Beep boop judging

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Tall Tree in the Water Forest by Supershroom

OVERALL SCORE: 14.5/20


Rating details:

--- Fun: 7/10
This level sure puts up a lot of challenge! I sure enjoyed the variety of Moving platforms combinations... But some were just poorly made (that pair of platforms at the beginning where you have to time it, and if you fail, you wait) or just too annoying to go through: for example, the first part of the Tall Tree, where you have two load TWO transitions every time you want to retry (admitting you don't die because your jump failed because of the slopes, this are awkward for jumps) ; or that second rotating block at the top of the tall forest transition (the wooden one), which demands to quickly crouch after landing, almost always resulting in me diving down.
Apart from that, this transition was really good, and offered a lot of different challenges, even though all these precise jumps make you restart most of the jumping if you fail. But hey, at least you don't die and I'm thankful for that... Because if you die, get ready to wait! The level features a fairly long loading time that really slows down the pace of the level. The level could also use some checkpoints (especially after the transition I talked about earlier).
Lastly, the abundance of signs. Let me explain. When I play a level themed Pure Platformer, I expect something à la Mario, know what I'm saying? I expected to just have to pick up a controller, and be ready to play without having to learn any tactics. But instead, I have to make precise maneuvers in order to advance in the level. Jump there, then spin to here... I'm being told how to play how to play the level. Once in the level it would have been fine, but it's all over the level. That is not how a Pure Platformer should work. Add to that that, most of the times, it isn't even necessary (that spin jump under the floating island? why not just make the island thinner and have a normal jump?), or just could be replaced with something better (the pair of platforms at the beginning). It just feels annoying.
TL;DR: Good points: Lots of nice, varied and creative challenges, the level is not boring and linear, not too hard, not too easy,
Bad points: Some annoying platforming, loading time when you die slowing down the pace, unnecessary use of specific actions in a Pure Platformer, some mistakes here and there (loading two transitions to restart)

--- Graphics: 4/5
It's not amazing, but it isn't bad either. The part inside the tree is especially good. The combination of the different tilesets for the tree is pretty good. I also liked the blending of the jungle and grass tilesets at the bottom of the forest part, even though it is fairly discreet.

--- Other: 3.5/5
[+0.5] That first Moving Platform challenge. It really sets the mood right off the bat and was creative
[+0.25] Alternate music was really fitting
[-0.25] Loading time is mildly annoying. However, you can't really die that much, so it isn't much of an issue.


--- Overall: 14.5/20
A fairly good level. The graphics and the challenges were nice, but some mishaps and unnecessary parts unfortunately lowered the score this level could have got.



Red Sun Fortress by Yurimaster

OVERALL SCORE: 17.25/20


Rating details:

--- Fun: 9/10
Man, what an amazing level! It's so tense, my heart was pounding while playing it, and not many levels have that effect on me. The challenges were varied and an example of a very creative use of flamethrowers. That part with the three scaling flamethrowers is my favourite. However the part with the three-directional flamethrowers is slightly less enjoyable, because you know like me that diagonal flamethrowers have weird hitboxes, causing some unfair damage at times. Thankfully, the epic conclusion makes up for it. A major downside of your level was the high loading time, which drastically slows down your level as you are likely to die... A LOT. But looking at your level, the loading time is fairly explained (flamethrowers EVERYWHERE), but it still is an annoyance. The level was the perfect balance between easy and hard, as the blue coins were expertly placed. Same goes for the more-than-welcome checkpoint before the second part. I have nothing more to say, this level is truly perfect.

--- Graphics: 5/5
My eyes are melting from such amazing graphics. Or by the amount of fire in your level. Melting eyes is painful, but worth it. The tileset choice was gorgeous. It almost looks like one of my leve-- *slapped*

--- Other: 3.25/5
[+0.5] That Triple Tower part. I don't know why this one in particular, but I love it.
[+0.25] Also that Rising Flame
[+0.25] Alternate music was just right.
[-0.75] That loading time really kills it.


--- Overall: 17.25/20
Truly amazing. Such a nice use of flamethrowers, even though there were some accidents here and there (damn you, weird hitboxes for diagonal flamethrowers!). Mark my words, you are gonna far kid. You are going to be a Red Sun and shine above the rest *Ba-dum-tss* I guess I've reached the point where I should typing


And I'm happy you liked the banner. I felt like doing one after playing your amazing levels :P
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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby Supershroom » October 20th, 2014, 11:14 am

Star king wrote:But instead, I have to make precise maneuvers in order to advance in the level. Jump there, then spin to here... I'm being told how to play how to play the level.

That was a reaction to Harmless' judging in the 27th LDC - he didn't know how to maneuver through various stuff, and so he felt like some challenges were impossible. I admit that I've exaggerated instructions sometimes. And on the other side - isn't it good to learn something new , e.g. how to deal with fast rising platforms? If I didn't gave any instructions for it, I guess you'd have a hard time trying to figure it out.

Star king wrote:you have two load TWO transitions every time you want to retry

Do you know a better way to let the parakoopas respawn without needing to wait?

On the other side, I've expected to get a -1 for loading time from every judge ... so that's cool too.

NanTheDark wrote:at a lot of points you break that flow and things become precision platforming

Are you guys all allergic against precision platforming? If so, I can have fun on revising all my entire LDC entry
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Rating standards: show
1 star: (0 - 5.75 in LDC) These levels need a lot of work. They're totally un-elaborated, and/or inherently flawed due to things like cutoff or enemy spam, or they're untested and there are too many bugs gameplay-wise, in short: Many many things went wrong in such a level.

2 stars: (6 - 9.75) These levels are not terrible, but poor. They're too short, lack scenery or they have errors and/or bugs but it's still barely enjoyable. Again, spend more effort and try to do better. (if it's your first level that I rate two stars, it's not bad. There's a long way you can still go)

3 stars: (10 - 12.75) These levels are about mediocre. They may be still a little bit short, the gameplay is fine but not very original and graphics are also solid, but not breath-taking. Try to keep improving!

4 stars: (13 - 15) These levels are nice, but not the best. Effort has been put into them, there can some professionality be seen in gameplay and graphics, they're a nice experience to play, but there are still things you can do to make it even better. Try to go the extra mile!

5 stars: (15.25 - 20) These are really great levels, those which, as said, I would give more than 15 in an LDC. These suffice many high requirements, and it already goes into subtleties if you want to make them better. These levels are successful all around. Bravo.

These are just general principles I try to follow when rating. Sometimes I don't leave a further comment when rating, most times I do, if you have questions about it, feel free to ask further.
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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby Harmless » October 20th, 2014, 11:24 am

Supershroom wrote:
Star king wrote:But instead, I have to make precise maneuvers in order to advance in the level. Jump there, then spin to here... I'm being told how to play how to play the level.

That was a reaction to Harmless' judging in the 27th LDC - he didn't know how to maneuver through various stuff, and so he felt like some challenges were impossible. I admit that I've exaggerated instructions sometimes. And on the other side - isn't it good to learn something new , e.g. how to deal with fast rising platforms? If I didn't gave any instructions for it, I guess you'd have a hard time trying to figure it out.

YOU'RE SERIOUSLY STILL ♥♥♥♥ STEAMED OVER THAT??

I'm not sure if caps was necessary to get my point across but dude! That was seriously my initial reaction when reading that. But there is a VERY big line between a player not knowing how to do good platforming maneuvers and a level that requires too much precision that is near unhumanly possible. Have you ever played Kaizo Mario or a Mario World Hack? Even the best Super Mario World players can die on it fairly fast because of how unfair it can be at times. Often times it's the person who made the hack that's responsible. And we all know how much you know about Mario World, so take that as you will.

Star king wrote:you have to load TWO transitions every time you want to retry

Do you know a better way to let the parakoopas respawn without needing to wait?

On the other side, I've expected to get a -1 for loading time from every judge ... so that's cool too.[/quote]
I'm fairly certain he was more concerned that, as a result of the paratroopa bouncing he had to constantly reload them because they were so punishable if you missed one jump.

NanTheDark wrote:at a lot of points you break that flow and things become precision platforming

Are you guys all allergic against precision platforming? If so, I can have fun on revising all my entire LDC entry[/quote]
Please do. Precision platforming has its place and uses (not a whole lot though, considering how unflexible it is), but a fast-paced level like yours is not one of them.
Expect something cool here soon!

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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby Asterocrat » October 20th, 2014, 11:33 am

Supershroom wrote:
NanTheDark wrote:at a lot of points you break that flow and things become precision platforming

Are you guys all allergic against precision platforming? If so, I can have fun on revising all my entire LDC entry

Precision platforming is a lazy way to make a level hard. A good way to make a level hard, for example, is to use moving platforms in a creative way, like you did in your duel level, for example! The speedrun parts were a big favourite of mine.
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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby Supershroom » October 20th, 2014, 11:39 am

Whoa Harmless, calm down now. I've got over that for a long time already. When I've made my level, I wasn't, and I've decided to make something better, aka avoiding to give too few instructions. But why the ♥♥♥♥ am I talking about this? It belongs to the past. I've just honestly said why I was tempted to make many instruction signs.

Back on topic:
Star king wrote:Precision platforming is a lazy way to make a level hard.

But that doesn't have to be bad if fairly executed. Your Neon City for example has some platforms that simply go right and left and you have to jump over them to cross gaps - you can die here if you act stupidly, and yet it fits to make the level entertaining.
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Rating standards: show
1 star: (0 - 5.75 in LDC) These levels need a lot of work. They're totally un-elaborated, and/or inherently flawed due to things like cutoff or enemy spam, or they're untested and there are too many bugs gameplay-wise, in short: Many many things went wrong in such a level.

2 stars: (6 - 9.75) These levels are not terrible, but poor. They're too short, lack scenery or they have errors and/or bugs but it's still barely enjoyable. Again, spend more effort and try to do better. (if it's your first level that I rate two stars, it's not bad. There's a long way you can still go)

3 stars: (10 - 12.75) These levels are about mediocre. They may be still a little bit short, the gameplay is fine but not very original and graphics are also solid, but not breath-taking. Try to keep improving!

4 stars: (13 - 15) These levels are nice, but not the best. Effort has been put into them, there can some professionality be seen in gameplay and graphics, they're a nice experience to play, but there are still things you can do to make it even better. Try to go the extra mile!

5 stars: (15.25 - 20) These are really great levels, those which, as said, I would give more than 15 in an LDC. These suffice many high requirements, and it already goes into subtleties if you want to make them better. These levels are successful all around. Bravo.

These are just general principles I try to follow when rating. Sometimes I don't leave a further comment when rating, most times I do, if you have questions about it, feel free to ask further.
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My total SM63 level experience: 2803 levels.
Total coins collected in these: 306800

The WITBLO11 Tribute


A showcase of the 25 best levels of 2011, including such fantastic levels as Niveau Victorieux Galaxy, Plastic Beach, Dimension Infinity, Realm of the Heavens/Parallel Spires, and more!

My Level Collection: http://runouw.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=47186

Other Important Links:
Last Legacy Level Designer tutorial
Eternal SM63 Medal Table
Eternal SM63 Score Table (all LDC scores available)
Top 10 Lists for LDC's (highest averages in a single judging criterion)
Runouw Votes Eternal Table
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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby NanTheDark » October 20th, 2014, 11:46 am

Precision platforming is bad, if you started the level as a fast paced platformer. If I'm running around at the speed of sound and suddenly I have to make a stop just so I can jump on some platforms with precision, then something's not right. If the whole level was about that, maybe. But that's not what the level was about.
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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby Harmless » October 20th, 2014, 11:56 am

Supershroom wrote:Whoa Harmless, calm down now. I've got over that for a long time already. When I've made my level, I wasn't, and I've decided to make something better, aka avoiding to give too few instructions. But why the ♥♥♥♥ am I talking about this? It belongs to the past. I've just honestly said why I was tempted to make many instruction signs.

Then why the passive aggressive remark?? 'Oh, just like Harmless who is, btw, really bad at vidya games and sucks at SM63, and he doesn't know how to do PROPER maneuvers or spin jumps, so OBVIOUSLY his claim that this impossible challenge that's impossible is null and void'

That's literally all I got from what you wrote in response to SK. Stop blaming it on the player. If a customer felt like his steak was served being hardly seasoned, is that the fault of the customer? Hardly, especially if the Chef didn't season it enough.
Expect something cool here soon!

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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby 1018peter » October 20th, 2014, 1:57 pm

Hm,and I thought that I was too kind on my judgings.




P.S. Yurimaster,can you post my judgings for me?I forgot to backup the draft.
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Re: The Dueling Arena

Postby Raiyuuni » October 20th, 2014, 2:16 pm

I kind of suspected I had gone over the edge on that one

oh, well

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Supershroom's Tall Tree in the Water Forest


For a fellow pure platforming level, this seems to be a nearly extreme opposite of Downfall. It is comfortable, it is spacious, it plays out smoothly with every gimmick being carefully explained by you, and most noteworthy of all, it lags. However, you missed out on avoiding the most important detail of all, which is this: it is too good at what it does.

It all starts out with a sign painter who likes contextual pleonasms, mildly unpolished speech and a has a crush on spoiling; our plumber, possessed by a platform-racing wannabe whose recklessness in gaming always sets new standards on mindless gameplay; and hundreds of innocent wild critters which, by the choice of fate, are slaughtered on the wake of the playtester.

The adventure quickly builds up to a careful and steady stroll on a beautiful park with lots of literature, which, much to Teeworlds' resemblance, is rendered devoid of thrill due to how sluggish the cameraman is. As I carried on with a surprisingly tranquil manner, I was surprised by the layout of most obstacles, such as the double platform elevator and laying down on narrow passages, even that being as obvious as it sounds. I couldn't help but notice, though, that some very specific details, like the tree standing on a mushroom platform, flat edges for water, a door for the tree entrance, unchallenging 1-UP's and smashing platforms on critical frame rate zones, just didn't work out for me. Some touch-and-go platforms, at first, also seemed to change directions without notice, or to disappear on some awkward spots. There was also some minor yet recurring cutoff, but it wasn't deserving of any penalties. And my RAM being raped on the foreground. Not to worry, however, I did worse all by myself. Oh, yeah, the song also went along with the level's style very well.

I haven't paid much attention to the last couple of competitions, but from what little I can tell, this seems to be on a new level for you. Congratulations. That was some neat brain-racking for some tricks out there, but as I said before, disregard the lag and the level was nearly rendered bland on its inner perfection, with the saving climaxes being new platform sets and walls om-nom-nom-ing the poor plumber at the brink of an inanimate moving block. Please do educate your sign painter on narrating, don't leave him lecturing the player on your precious platforming mysteries. That's the reason why I killed him on my level. And try to further polish your works (don't be afraid to ask for feedback before the deadline (if that is even allowed, depending on who it is)), but that doesn't imply that making a safari on the Amazonian forest out of every adventure of yours is an unquestionable victory recipe.

Speaking of the devil...

Yurimaster's Red Sun Fortress



Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Nwolf is proud of you, kid.

This level, akin to Supershroom's, also raised the bar a bit too high on a few aspects. Firstly, that flame indication for triangular systems, for instance, was rather unintuitive. When I had gotten the hang of the platforms, I often didn't have time to care about where the flames were going next. At some more specific times, I couldn't even see them at the speed I had to move. What's next, the tiles were so well laid out, at some times I couldn't tell which was a foreground wall and which was a safe platform.

I need to tip off my recently purchased straw hat for your slightly more challenging 1-UP challenges and adequate usage and presentation of new flame gimmicks. The platforming, despite mildly frustrating at first, proved out to be surprisingly fluid after a few attempts, despite my not enjoying forced safe zones that much. Except for two important details. Some of your first growing fire sentries would shrink before being turned off. I don't know if that was intentional, but that was at least intriguing - it didn't seem like it was supposed to happen. Also... you used diagonal flame walls. Extensively. That is a crime, according to my officially arbitrary level designing ethics code handbook.

For the minor issue list, I hit the flame floor by the end of the first narrow passage after the level transition after the first checkpoint. I only had a quarter of the total HP, but didn't even get hurt when I was supposed to die. Also, that spot was also a bit clumsy, as Mario took every available opportunity to do what he does best at this game: be a slacker at the brink of an italian barbecue. Some specific spots also needed some extra shiny arrows. Remember those blue ones? Get them. The themes were also adequate, despite the first one's being as cliché as the ones I choose. And there's the rising flame room. A triple sentry at the middle of a high speed zone was kind of a bad call. Last but not least, the loading time was slightly friendlier, but that because I had to close everything else. Otherwise, I'd manage to get crash warnings on a level transition, and not even Shroom's level had accomplished that.

...

Man, that was one huge chunk of random text. TL;DR: Given the size of the previous paragraph, I think you could also use some early feedback on your level to avoid so many minor issues overlapping on a fancy structure. And work on continuity for dummy visitors, but keep the difficulty up.


Scores


So, without further ado, let's see how many points were the designers awarded for their crafts!
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whoa that others was a bit steep. but seriously, NO DIAGONAL TOASTING. runouw didn't know how to do collision properly


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