- This post by SuperMIC was thumbed up by: 4
- Dtroid (March 18th, 2013, 8:04 pm) • MessengerOfDreams (March 18th, 2013, 2:31 pm) • Nwolf (March 19th, 2013, 4:52 am) • ~MP3 Amplifier~ (March 18th, 2013, 1:46 pm)
Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
Moderator: Level Moderator
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
Thumbs up x4 
by SuperMIC » March 18th, 2013, 1:41 pm
Am I the only one who thinks the current system is fine and is not the problem, but it might be the people?
I mean, I came here when the LDCs were at a time like they are now - few competitors, people began to start complaining. But the staff played it out: the problem that time wasn't the LDCs it was the themes. MoD then came out with the Pure Platforming thing and got the most LDers since who knows when. This time, I feel like the people are the problem.
Alright, I'll address the complaint/issue first that the same people keep winning over and over again. There comes a point in your LDing life where you'll reach your maximum potential, where you'll know all there is to know about the LDer. And this point is only achieved through experience, and this is where these "legends" are right now. But these legends weren't always legends. You can't just enter the scene top of your game (unless you're BY who LDed 3 years prior), you've got to get some practice. All legends started at the bottom. MP3 started with a disqualification. I started with a 32nd place. (THIRTY SECOND.) Buffooner started with low scores and so did YB and Nin. MoD started out with some pretty low-effort levels. Even Volcove started with small levels. But what did they do? They tried again. You try again and you gather the knowledge of people who are better than you until you are good or even better than they are. You meet people, you meet personalities on the site and you learn how to develop your style. The road of LDing is fun - but only if you'll let it be.
I'm kinda disappointed that people are complaining that it's impossible to knock people off the top and when you do, you get a useless medal. But medals aren't useless. Again, you're thinking in the mindset you can jump into an LDC and you can just by luck happen to win. No. Medals are just 0s and 1s displayed on a monitor with no inherent monetary valuebut they aren't the praise you'll get after the LDC. No, medals represent ALL of those LDCs you failed to place in before. It represents all the effort you put into LDing. It represents that you finally did it! They told you that you sucked and to try again next time, and you tried again until you did. Where has that sense of motivation and actual effort gone? Medals aren't just placeholders that say you got this far in an LDC. It's an accurate representation that you put in the effort and that you're better than the 99% who were too lazy and they couldn't see that if they just went a bit further they could do great things.
If you don't believe, you can look at my journey.
I started with a 4.5/20 from MoD in the 13th LDC, with sparse 10-12 scores from the other judges. And what did I place? 32/33. (Lol silly jellonator came last :3333) but anyway that's not the point.
I was mad. I can tell that I felt the same as anyone else, because I tried as hard as I possibly could and I got a 4.5/20. I got 32/33. I stared at the list of all of the people who got better than me and told myself, "My entry was better than theirs! I didn't get 32/33?" Isn't that how you're feeling now? It's a hopeless cause because of all of those people who are "better" than you? If you keep thinking that way, then they'll always be better than you. Because you were too blind to look at all of their experience, all of their triumphs and their defeats and all of their effort. You looked at scores like they were scores, not an accurate reflection of how far you've come.
Fast forward over the cooldown time where I jumped into the IRC chat and met people. I met most of the people I still am good friends with today, including Ven, Nin, MoD, Chau, etc. I decided that if I really sucked this much, what were the "good" people doing that I wasn't? So I joined MoD's WITBLOAT project. Now, opportunities like this don't come every day but there are always opportunities like this. Ask other LDers if you can help, or if you can watch them do stuff. This community's nice enough not to say no. Also, hop into the IRC chat. You never know who you'll meet.
I played 30 different beautiful levels crafted by who were considered the best LDers of all time. I measured up at 32nd in a fraction of LDers. What did I find? I found that these people really were better than me. I looked at levels which were amazing, like Space Colony and Final Rush. These levels showed me the potential and capacity of what you can create in the LDer - if you put in the effort.
15th LDC, I created what would place today in WITBLO12 - Temple of Heart. Due to a failed second level I pulled out 11th, but my original goal was 10th. Did I stop there? Because look, I put in the effort and I played the levels of "better" people do I stop there? No.
16th LDC, Musical Moods I tried again to make a big level and I didn't make the Top Ten cut again, but you can see the pattern. Do you stop in the face of failure? No, that makes you worse than the people who are better, and I, like you, want to prove I can be the best of the best, right?
17th LDC I collaborated with MP3 and finally, finally we placed second collaboratively. After almost a year of work, and sweat I finally did it. We, finally did it. But there were still a plethora of people we could call better than us. MoD, Volcove, Nin, Four, Krazy, murph, Buff, Chau. Were we truly there yet? No, we weren't.
And so through trying and trying again MP3 has taken a seat as one of the few who have one more than one LDC, and I am happy to take my seat as the highest-scored second placer of all time.
Stopping in the face of doubt is understandable, complaining that the system is unfair is understandable. But you can ask any "legend" of today, and their story is very similar to mine. You can't stop. You don't stop. You try until you are the best and if your hardest attempt is not the best then you keep going until it is.
As they say, You can spend a lifetime trying to change the world, or you can just let the world change you.
Be the change, don't change the world until you are defined as right.
That's all I have to say.
-SMIC
I mean, I came here when the LDCs were at a time like they are now - few competitors, people began to start complaining. But the staff played it out: the problem that time wasn't the LDCs it was the themes. MoD then came out with the Pure Platforming thing and got the most LDers since who knows when. This time, I feel like the people are the problem.
Alright, I'll address the complaint/issue first that the same people keep winning over and over again. There comes a point in your LDing life where you'll reach your maximum potential, where you'll know all there is to know about the LDer. And this point is only achieved through experience, and this is where these "legends" are right now. But these legends weren't always legends. You can't just enter the scene top of your game (unless you're BY who LDed 3 years prior), you've got to get some practice. All legends started at the bottom. MP3 started with a disqualification. I started with a 32nd place. (THIRTY SECOND.) Buffooner started with low scores and so did YB and Nin. MoD started out with some pretty low-effort levels. Even Volcove started with small levels. But what did they do? They tried again. You try again and you gather the knowledge of people who are better than you until you are good or even better than they are. You meet people, you meet personalities on the site and you learn how to develop your style. The road of LDing is fun - but only if you'll let it be.
I'm kinda disappointed that people are complaining that it's impossible to knock people off the top and when you do, you get a useless medal. But medals aren't useless. Again, you're thinking in the mindset you can jump into an LDC and you can just by luck happen to win. No. Medals are just 0s and 1s displayed on a monitor with no inherent monetary valuebut they aren't the praise you'll get after the LDC. No, medals represent ALL of those LDCs you failed to place in before. It represents all the effort you put into LDing. It represents that you finally did it! They told you that you sucked and to try again next time, and you tried again until you did. Where has that sense of motivation and actual effort gone? Medals aren't just placeholders that say you got this far in an LDC. It's an accurate representation that you put in the effort and that you're better than the 99% who were too lazy and they couldn't see that if they just went a bit further they could do great things.
If you don't believe, you can look at my journey.
I started with a 4.5/20 from MoD in the 13th LDC, with sparse 10-12 scores from the other judges. And what did I place? 32/33. (Lol silly jellonator came last :3333) but anyway that's not the point.
I was mad. I can tell that I felt the same as anyone else, because I tried as hard as I possibly could and I got a 4.5/20. I got 32/33. I stared at the list of all of the people who got better than me and told myself, "My entry was better than theirs! I didn't get 32/33?" Isn't that how you're feeling now? It's a hopeless cause because of all of those people who are "better" than you? If you keep thinking that way, then they'll always be better than you. Because you were too blind to look at all of their experience, all of their triumphs and their defeats and all of their effort. You looked at scores like they were scores, not an accurate reflection of how far you've come.
Fast forward over the cooldown time where I jumped into the IRC chat and met people. I met most of the people I still am good friends with today, including Ven, Nin, MoD, Chau, etc. I decided that if I really sucked this much, what were the "good" people doing that I wasn't? So I joined MoD's WITBLOAT project. Now, opportunities like this don't come every day but there are always opportunities like this. Ask other LDers if you can help, or if you can watch them do stuff. This community's nice enough not to say no. Also, hop into the IRC chat. You never know who you'll meet.
I played 30 different beautiful levels crafted by who were considered the best LDers of all time. I measured up at 32nd in a fraction of LDers. What did I find? I found that these people really were better than me. I looked at levels which were amazing, like Space Colony and Final Rush. These levels showed me the potential and capacity of what you can create in the LDer - if you put in the effort.
15th LDC, I created what would place today in WITBLO12 - Temple of Heart. Due to a failed second level I pulled out 11th, but my original goal was 10th. Did I stop there? Because look, I put in the effort and I played the levels of "better" people do I stop there? No.
16th LDC, Musical Moods I tried again to make a big level and I didn't make the Top Ten cut again, but you can see the pattern. Do you stop in the face of failure? No, that makes you worse than the people who are better, and I, like you, want to prove I can be the best of the best, right?
17th LDC I collaborated with MP3 and finally, finally we placed second collaboratively. After almost a year of work, and sweat I finally did it. We, finally did it. But there were still a plethora of people we could call better than us. MoD, Volcove, Nin, Four, Krazy, murph, Buff, Chau. Were we truly there yet? No, we weren't.
And so through trying and trying again MP3 has taken a seat as one of the few who have one more than one LDC, and I am happy to take my seat as the highest-scored second placer of all time.
Stopping in the face of doubt is understandable, complaining that the system is unfair is understandable. But you can ask any "legend" of today, and their story is very similar to mine. You can't stop. You don't stop. You try until you are the best and if your hardest attempt is not the best then you keep going until it is.
As they say, You can spend a lifetime trying to change the world, or you can just let the world change you.
Be the change, don't change the world until you are defined as right.
That's all I have to say.
-SMIC
<Arocado:> I'm Asian.
PROOF.
^ Panik, you rock. ^
RUNOUW: DANGER AND DECEPTION: Read it! You could be in it!
PROOF.
^ Panik, you rock. ^
RUNOUW: DANGER AND DECEPTION: Read it! You could be in it!
"Surveys": show
-
SuperMIC - The Legacy
- Posts: 692
- Joined: February 2nd, 2011, 12:08 pm
- Location: Br... it's chilly here, eh?
- Thumbs Up given: 85 times
- Thumbs Up received: 60 times
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
by ~MP3 Amplifier~ » March 18th, 2013, 1:47 pm
SMIC I know I talked to you on skype when you were typing up this 'rant' but srsly that first line sums up ALL MY THOUGHTS. Sorry guys.
The below image is a montage of my individual highest placing LDC creations, as a reminder to myself that level designing is a part of my life that I can't just leave behind
-
~MP3 Amplifier~ - THE DARK LAMP
Error contacting Twitter - Posts: 4383
- Joined: May 6th, 2011, 12:35 pm
- Location: Maaars d(^_^)b
SM63 Level Designer Contest Winner - Thumbs Up given: 226 times
- Thumbs Up received: 611 times
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
by lordpat » March 18th, 2013, 1:51 pm
I am not saying it is fault from the system. I am saying that maybe changing and twisting the system a bit would help. Just to change a bit the way it is going, and tbh, we lose nothing by trying. Reality is having an alternate method for people who want to try another even for their levels to be recognized without needing it to be competitive may not be a bad idea overall. Weather about the deadlines and such, it does really need to change. In those LDCs the themes did not work, what happened? people started to work together to make better themes and solve it. The deadlines and extensions are causing problems? we need to find a way to make better deadlines and extension rules.
-
lordpat - The Legacy
- Posts: 650
- Joined: March 15th, 2010, 9:41 am
Runouw Votes Winner - Thumbs Up given: 43 times
- Thumbs Up received: 94 times
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
Thumbs up x1
by nin10mode » March 18th, 2013, 2:11 pm
While I'm positive that that is true, SMIC, it's just a fact that willpower is not common among everyone. You can understand things and be lazy with a level, or you can not understand things but be enthusiastic enough to keep trying things until you get something you like, not knowing how you did what you did. People work with different mindsets. Personally, I hate deadlines. I like doing my own thing at my own pace. Other people work better when they need to crunch their time. I don't like playing games where I have to deal with high level players that may or may not be jerks. A lot of new users probably won't lurk the site their first few days and try to understand every single person.
When I go on a multiplayer game, I go on practice mode my first few sessions so I don't completely embarrass myself. Yes, this site does not really pick on 'losers', but how would they know without lurking? When I first joined, I was as quiet as can be because I was afraid of what people would say. I worked on my own and my first LDC scored a 13/20. If you look at my Judging Style, I consider scores between 10 and 14 good. Did waiting a little bit pay off in my opinion? Yes. A 13 isn't that far off from a 15. None of the judgings for my first entrant detailed that the level was terrible, because it wasn't. Let's say I scored a 0. I would probably never try entering again. Why? Because that's what kind of person I was.
Other users should get other ways to learn, because I know that not everyone lurks. If you give them informal LDCs, they have a chance to learn a little before they enter the Official Contests with the best of the best. I don't think you understand that people react differently to things. When you lose all your money, some people will give up on life, some people will try to pop back up, some people will resort to theft. Not everyone will be like you if they score poorly. It's too idealistic to assume everyone is going to act the way you do.
When I go on a multiplayer game, I go on practice mode my first few sessions so I don't completely embarrass myself. Yes, this site does not really pick on 'losers', but how would they know without lurking? When I first joined, I was as quiet as can be because I was afraid of what people would say. I worked on my own and my first LDC scored a 13/20. If you look at my Judging Style, I consider scores between 10 and 14 good. Did waiting a little bit pay off in my opinion? Yes. A 13 isn't that far off from a 15. None of the judgings for my first entrant detailed that the level was terrible, because it wasn't. Let's say I scored a 0. I would probably never try entering again. Why? Because that's what kind of person I was.
Other users should get other ways to learn, because I know that not everyone lurks. If you give them informal LDCs, they have a chance to learn a little before they enter the Official Contests with the best of the best. I don't think you understand that people react differently to things. When you lose all your money, some people will give up on life, some people will try to pop back up, some people will resort to theft. Not everyone will be like you if they score poorly. It's too idealistic to assume everyone is going to act the way you do.
-
nin10mode - Immune to Death
Error contacting Twitter 
Error contacting last.fm - Posts: 3087
- Joined: October 3rd, 2009, 6:11 am
- Location: Not here
Credit To Team - Thumbs Up given: 102 times
- Thumbs Up received: 221 times
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
by CrazyMario » March 18th, 2013, 4:57 pm
Those who get pretty normal scores around the 10-14 mark often finish in the deadline,while those "grand legends" seem to need extensions every contest,and are often the ones who place. Extensions are just like an unfair privelege reserved for those legendary designers. If you say every LDC that you have irl problems and so need a week's extension,than sort out your life first. RL should come before an image of a trophy in your profile.
And about not giving up and trying again,not everyone has willpower to try again and again. For example,if User A and User B both make accounts on this site and take part in an LDC,User A scores a 12 and so does User B,it's possible that User A decides to keep on trying again,telling himself that a 12 isn't far off from a 15,but User B could give up on LDCs altogether. You can't assume that everyone will keep trying again,there will be people who will give up.People will react differently to things.
And about not giving up and trying again,not everyone has willpower to try again and again. For example,if User A and User B both make accounts on this site and take part in an LDC,User A scores a 12 and so does User B,it's possible that User A decides to keep on trying again,telling himself that a 12 isn't far off from a 15,but User B could give up on LDCs altogether. You can't assume that everyone will keep trying again,there will be people who will give up.People will react differently to things.
- CrazyMario
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
Thumbs up x2
by SuperMIC » March 18th, 2013, 6:01 pm
But you could also argue that deadlines force people to work but looser deadlines cause people to get lazy and cause them to quit halfway through. Extensions should only be given in 1-3 days amounts, just so people who put in a lot of effort and are almost done have that time to finish their masterpiece.
<Arocado:> I'm Asian.
PROOF.
^ Panik, you rock. ^
RUNOUW: DANGER AND DECEPTION: Read it! You could be in it!
PROOF.
^ Panik, you rock. ^
RUNOUW: DANGER AND DECEPTION: Read it! You could be in it!
"Surveys": show
-
SuperMIC - The Legacy
- Posts: 692
- Joined: February 2nd, 2011, 12:08 pm
- Location: Br... it's chilly here, eh?
- Thumbs Up given: 85 times
- Thumbs Up received: 60 times
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
Thumbs up x1
by nin10mode » March 18th, 2013, 7:14 pm
When you extend the deadline a significant amount, you aren't forced to use all of that time. If you start right when the LDC is announced and expect to work on your level through the entire time period nonstop, then yes, you are going to give up, unless you treat Level designing like a job of sorts. Or, you can gather your ideas first, then start designing a bit later in the contest, getting a decently-sized level with awesome gameplay, with perhaps the drawback of loading time or lag. Or you can wait until the last minute and use the time restraint and urgency of the issue to use the most of your effort to crunch out a short and amazing level.
I made Omniquet in about a week and it paired up with MP3's UniversiMetrabilisthingamabobber, a two part level that looks like a significant amount of extra effort was put into cool moving block gimmicks, just looking at the titlecard. I'd think that a strict deadline would make people quit halfway more than a looser deadline would. Besides, if someone drops out of a LDC with a looser deadline, it's much easier to say that he dropped because of laziness, isn't it? In these stricter deadlines, I do believe that some people that ask for extensions lie and use homework and life problems as excuses for not being able to make a level. If there's a looser deadline, you can't say that you had no time, unless you're new to the site or have come back from a break, in which case said break would be detailed in the Leaving/Returning Thread.
People that work better with short deadlines can procrastinate if that's what helps them(yes, that is a valid form of trying to get the best working attitude out of you). Hell, they can use the first week or so to organize their ideas if they wanted to. People that are more lax can take it at their own pace and still come up with a good level.
Being lax isn't bad work ethic. Anyway, it's not like this idea has to be permanent. It's just an extended deadline; there are no new rules being put in place. We can easily test it out once and see how it goes.
I made Omniquet in about a week and it paired up with MP3's UniversiMetrabilisthingamabobber, a two part level that looks like a significant amount of extra effort was put into cool moving block gimmicks, just looking at the titlecard. I'd think that a strict deadline would make people quit halfway more than a looser deadline would. Besides, if someone drops out of a LDC with a looser deadline, it's much easier to say that he dropped because of laziness, isn't it? In these stricter deadlines, I do believe that some people that ask for extensions lie and use homework and life problems as excuses for not being able to make a level. If there's a looser deadline, you can't say that you had no time, unless you're new to the site or have come back from a break, in which case said break would be detailed in the Leaving/Returning Thread.
People that work better with short deadlines can procrastinate if that's what helps them(yes, that is a valid form of trying to get the best working attitude out of you). Hell, they can use the first week or so to organize their ideas if they wanted to. People that are more lax can take it at their own pace and still come up with a good level.
Being lax isn't bad work ethic. Anyway, it's not like this idea has to be permanent. It's just an extended deadline; there are no new rules being put in place. We can easily test it out once and see how it goes.
-
nin10mode - Immune to Death
Error contacting Twitter Error contacting last.fm - Posts: 3087
- Joined: October 3rd, 2009, 6:11 am
- Location: Not here
Credit To Team - Thumbs Up given: 102 times
- Thumbs Up received: 221 times
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
by CrazyMario » March 18th, 2013, 7:19 pm
Deadlines should be reasonable in the first place. If the deadlines are reasonable,there is no need for extensions at all. The deadlines shouldn't be too tight,but shouldn't be longer either. I don't want long deadlines,seeing that even with long deadlines people still need long extensions,which proves they didn't make good use of the time. I don't think we need extensions or very long deadlines at all. Short deadlines are more likely to make people quit than long ones I assume.
- CrazyMario
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
Thumbs up x1
by ~MP3 Amplifier~ » March 19th, 2013, 12:14 am
Yeah Universitas took the whole deadline. :3 But I usually do.
Also I agree with 1 or 2 day extensions like the system we have now; tbh I find no faults with the current system. I don't really see why extensions should be stopped, it's like in exams, people are entitled to extra time but some people don't need it.
Also I agree with 1 or 2 day extensions like the system we have now; tbh I find no faults with the current system. I don't really see why extensions should be stopped, it's like in exams, people are entitled to extra time but some people don't need it.
The below image is a montage of my individual highest placing LDC creations, as a reminder to myself that level designing is a part of my life that I can't just leave behind
-
~MP3 Amplifier~ - THE DARK LAMP
Error contacting Twitter - Posts: 4383
- Joined: May 6th, 2011, 12:35 pm
- Location: Maaars d(^_^)b
SM63 Level Designer Contest Winner - Thumbs Up given: 226 times
- Thumbs Up received: 611 times
Re: Public Discussion of the Newfound Opinion on LDC's
Thumbs up x1
by CrazyMario » March 19th, 2013, 12:52 am
If everyone wants extensions so badly,then fine. But extend it for everyone,insetad of just for the person itself. Some people could be actually lying about their extension reasons,but I doubt anyone would take a contest THAT seriously.
- CrazyMario
48 posts
• Page 4 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5