[Very] Hard level, frustrating level conundrum.

[CedarBranch]

I have too much experience with platforming to make it simple and easy to figure out, therefore I'd bore myself, so...


Just explain what you think is different between a frustrating level and a hard/very hard level, and why.
Also, please explain any universal solutions that are supposed to please anybody (or it may just be a questionable judge), no matter how hard the level.

BONUS Q1: How do you make Kaizo levels good/fun?

BONUS Q2: When is it interesting to try and figure out how to pass a part of a level, and not get frustrated or give up in the process?

[1018peter]

Hard/Very Hard Levels: It's certainly hard,but when you try it,you will feel like you can go through certain parts of it by trying a few times.

Frustrating Levels: It's certainly hard,and contains parts where Screw-Ups can easily happen.

The different part between two,is that you feel rather hopeless when you screw up a part in a Frustrating Level,and you feel rather hopeful when you screw up a part in a Hard Level.
That's how I'll put it.


A level that can please anybody can't be very hard,not everyone has enough reflexes.


And to your two bonus questions...

A1: Sorry,this is one question that I haven't found an answer yet.

A2: When you play through a certain part of a level,it feels like you can almost make it.That will give people hope,and will be willing to try it again. (That's how I feel though)

[Harmless]

Frustration comes in a lot of different aspects. When we look at frustration in level design and platforming, however, it is most apparent in various forms of:
- Being unable to figure out any ways to get past an obstacle.
- Something cheap or unexpected that the player is unable to avoid.
- A lack of a checkpoint system or something incredibly precise after a long trek or something before it.

Difficulty is best when it comes in varieties of how to get from Point A to Point B, not necessarily 'be precise and land on every single 16x16 lava tile and then make a perfectly timed triple jump at the end'. If there's strictly only one way to get past this obstacle, then it's bound to be frustrating.

[~MP3 Amplifier~]

Frustration is when it feels like care hasn't been taken and feels like you're asking too much of the player. E.g. having lots of green platform circles all colliding at different offsets to confuse the player is hard, but also fun. However if they were going at the speed of light and you had to tag onto a quick accelerating size 1 platform straight after, that would be frustrating. You would be asking too much of the player.

It's also frustrating when you use faults in the designer, such as lag, glitches (unless executed and used well) and really fast platforms so you're physically unable to keep your balance. That's hard in a really unprofessional way, it rarely ever works. Also, any clever or smart hard obstacles still shouldn't be too repetitive. If you want to increase difficulty gradually, do each section in small steps, don't do 5 sections of difficulty increase split between 5 massive transitions. And last but not least, regular checkpoints are necessary. If its a very hard level, a checkpoint after almost every hard section would be necessary.

I may not be the best person to contribute as I dislike making hard levels tbh, but yeah. The hard levels I recorded on YT are my "ideal type" of hard level as they're not frustrating...most of the time.

[NanTheDark]

If I may borrow from a ton of vids I've seen about it...

Hard or very hard levels are levels where you have trouble getting through, and it's your fault for timing your jumps incorrectly or failing to notice something, I dunno.

Frustrating levels are levels where you have trouble getting through, and IT'S THE DESIGNER'S FAULT FOR MAKING THIS PIECE OF CRAP I MEAN HOW AM I EXPECTED TO MAKE THIS JUMP EVEN WHERE DID THAT ENEMY EVEN COME FROM WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

So yeah. For example in Megaman you often find a new enemy, but you are not in its line of fire when it first attacks, so you can see how it attacks. Therefore, if you keep going and you get hit, it's your fault.

But in Megaman X6 to get through Gate's Fortress you'll need to acquire the Jumper part if you want to make it through, which allows you to jump a bit higher. This part is held by one of the reploids you save through the stages. You aren't told he has it, nor are told about the importance of getting some parts. And there's enemies called Nightmares which can kill these reploids permanently. As in, you can return to the stage and the reploids won't be there with the part anymore. So if you don't know about this, and you either skip past the reploid, or the reploid dies... then you can't get the Jumper part. Good luck getting through Megaman X6, because the game is unfair as hell. I still like it though

So basically, it's about being fair to the player. Put as many traps as you want, as long as it's "fair". It's very easy to walk the line between hard and frustrating. You'll need experience to figure this out.

Bonus Q1: The way I see it... Kaizo levels aren't meant to be fun. They are challenging. They are meant to put the players's skills to the limit and then some. Therefore, they will mostly only appeal to the challenge type of gamer.

Bonus Q2: When I am presented with clues as to how to continue, then it's fair. As in, I can see the platforms I need to go through (or notice them somehow if they're invisible or whatever), or I can figure out how to kill the enemies, and whatnot... I'm not sure of what to say of this.










For the record some people actually enjoy frustrating games. Meh.

[-BY]

- Avoid anything that may appear random to others
- Make use of a specific tolerance for both jump height and wide. (Simply reduce the original hight, they had to reach by a half tile. Changes a lot already)
- Forced damage is a nogo (Don't even get close to that. If there's not enough area to avoid, you're making it worse again.)
- Don't require for knowledge the player cannot have. (Introduce any custom object or very specific situation through text or smart usage of level design)
- While one should stay to their standards, you will have to adapt to other people, if you want your level to work with others than yourself as well. Being stubborn
there won't help at all (I'm relating to soooooo frikkin much here. Sepcific performance dropping backgrounds (We don't need to mess with empty space.),
impossible jump hights, giant laggy/long loading passages with no checkpoint areas or no attempt to split up the level, etc)
That's your main problem up to this date.
- Don't hit the player with something that looks almost impossible from the beginning.
Increasing in difficulty as you progress is a good way to reach this in a comfortable way.

I'll stop here. I could continue, if you need more of this, though.

Answer for Bonus Q1:
They cannot be fun in SM63. It's simply not the game for that. Main reason is both the lag/loading time issues and especially the fact that you have to reload the level every single time from the LDer.

Answer for Bonus Q2:
You will need other people for that, as it varies a lot from situation to situation. There's no general solution for that.
If you've none (that's unlikely), you can be certain that it's dangerous to go for situations like this if they're involving death in any way.

Alright. That'd be my own humble contribution to this. ^^

[CedarBranch]

Before you read this post, I want you to know that I have been going through extreme stress, so please don't take this as stubborn, even if it is:


With these things called "contests," those people known as "judges," the players who can "rate your levels," it is hard to enjoy making levels if you are me. I love making the levels the way I enjoy them. But, after the judgings I got from my 27th LDC entrants, I lost hope that I'm really having people enjoy my levels.
On top of this, "judges have to find the faults." So what you were frustrated by a level? So what I, I got frustrated by a level? So what? Does that mean SM63 cannot be frustrating? Does this mean NOTHING can be frustrating? COME ON. Is this society? No. This is supposed to be some dumb thing known as a "game."
If I can't make levels that frustrate NOBODY, what's the point? Am I any different? Yes, apparently. I am not allowed to make ♥♥♥♥ LEVELS THAT ARE FRUSTRATING. FINE. DON'T PLAY THOSE LEVELS. DON'T JUDGE THEM, DAMMIT.
Go ahead. Don't play my hard levels. DON'T PLAY SM63, because "Kaizo levels" don't work. That must be why.

Why did you guys play the levels anyway? So what if you got tricked by some evil 1-up mushroom above a bottomless pit? So what if I hated that cutoff?
So, what's the point if you're not going to play that level again, Harmless? Apparently, the level I made was WORTHLESS. BECAUSE, "IT WAS FRUSTRATING." LET ME SPELL IT: F-R-U-S-T-R-A-T-I-N-G. IS THAT BAD? ACCORDING TO YOU, YES. TO ME? ♥♥♥♥ NO.


...I think I've drain myself of all my energy. I just had to let it all out.

[NanTheDark]

I haven't really played your levels myself Triple J, so I can't really give you my impression of what your levels are like.

But... as you said it, this is a game. If you have fun making levels, awesome. Don't let yourself be discouraged by other people's opinions. They might be helpful in the future.

As for you enjoying frustrating levels... It's fine. Just put a sticker somewhere that says "this level is hard", so that the softy casuals can avoid it.

[CedarBranch]

This post by CedarBranch was thumbed up by:

Supershroom (September 26th, 2014, 12:25 am)

[NanTheDark]

That's how it is. People have different opinions.

Don't take these contests too seriously either. I haven't taken these seriously for a really long time now.

If you're doing it for fame, well, what's the point of trying to be famous here in this random forum? Just get known by interacting with other peoples, chat, or whatever. LDing can be a way to go, but let's be honest, I have no idea of who zebtrestalala (or what's his name) was. I hear he made levels, I don't freaking know. But people like Venexis, like MoD, like MP3, like... I dunno, myself, get known just by hanging around long enough, and doing stuff. I dunno. If all else fails, just say you'll kill yourself. That always attracts people. *gets shot* but seriously don't even think of killing yourself life's awesome

If you're doing it for the challenge of being better than other people, well, you picked something really subjective to compete in, sadly.

But if you're doing it for fun, then Nothing Else Matters. Just enjoy yourself.











And for the record, I think I do get your point.