- This post by Charcoal was thumbed up by: 6
- Oranjui (December 5th, 2015, 8:15 am) • Supershroom (December 5th, 2015, 8:18 am) • TheExcavator (December 6th, 2015, 5:51 am) • Vajrin (December 5th, 2015, 6:54 pm) • ~MP3 Amplifier~ (December 5th, 2015, 4:28 pm) and one more user
Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
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Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
Thumbs up x6 
by Charcoal » December 5th, 2015, 8:07 am
Here are some things that were said in the chat about LDing. I think it also has more to do with LDCs, but anyway:
So I wanted to bring up something serious when it comes to LDing on here and LDCs. What was going on was I think 1018peter was saying he was going to be done LDing because he couldn't please people. So we filled in on what we thought and tried to help him keep designing. I think that's what started this discussion.
Anyway, I know there are a lot of us that want to be recognized in some form or fashion. I know we want to be worth something. Believe me, I know how that feels like. You want to make the "HARDEST LEVEL EVER" hoping to get people to be like "ohh man that's so cool! it really is hard! you're the best!" Or you enter an LDC hoping to win first place and get in the LDC Hall of Fame. Instead you get 9th, and you give up because you didn't win.
Honestly, does it really matter if you lost or does it matter that no one likes your level that much? Why do you want it so bad? Do you HAVE to have it? Why do you HAVE to have to get 1st place, or why do HAVE to have 5/5 stars; or why do you HAVE to get gold tier in the Hall of Fame? What's the point of all of that? I understand that those LDC medals look really cool and all, but do you HAVE to have one?
I saw I was 20th on the Hall of Fame. I didn't really like it because I thought gold tier looked better, but it really didn't matter to me too much. All that mattered was I became a better LDer than I was then even if I was ranked higher at the time I made Frost Glade, and I was still having fun.
That's what matters: are you having fun? Have fun just designing and not winning. You can design to win as like some kind of motivation, but don't let it be your primary goal. Your primary goal, I think, is to enjoy designing. When I made Grey Garden Station and Ardam, I thought they would be better than Frost Glade. They got 5th place instead of Frost Glade which got 1st. I still thought those two looked better and were designed better than Frost Glade.
LDCs are really meant to bring people together and kinda design levels together I guess. The thing about them is this:
Even hosts will say this about LDCs.
I know you want people to like you, but LDing doesn't have to be the answer to your prayers for this. Personality matters more. If you lose an LDC and are okay about and move on, people will like you just as much, if not more, as if you would win.
I understand winning is so satisfying. Heck, I like to win. It makes me feel good about myself. That's fine. Winning is a good thing to experience. However, you should not take failure and success so seriously. That's the problem. Having a mentality of I'm going to win will set you up for failure. The same can be said for failure if all you think is you are going to lose no matter what. Balance it out a bit. Hope that you will win, but understand that you might not win.
How about this: Pie or Watermelon eating contests. Those are fun and insane and whatnot right? Does it matter if you won or lost those?
Here's what you do: if you win: learn why you won and improve that. If you lose: learn why you lost and fix that.
Here's what you don't do: If you win: act all proud, join the next LDC thinking you'll win no matter what again and not change a thing. If you lose: complain about it, give up, and not change a thing
Make levels to have fun okay? Look, I don't care if it doesn't get 5 stars, or it doesn't get 1st place, or it doesn't get a comment on it in like 30 seconds. Did you have fun making the level yes or no? That's all I care about.
I hope I got my point across. I better have. I don't want to see you guys being all negative about how your levels suck. I don't like it.
D-Don't make come over there and beat you. Don't tempt me. No, don't you dare. Ah-AH! No! You better not do it!! Nah, I'm kidding you guys
I'm not going to beat you or anything.
But seriously I hope I was clear about this.
tl;dr Design your levels to have fun. Not to win. Winning sucks
Hope this helps
superm63creator wrote:This may hurt people but if your only goal when I make something is to get a positive reaction out of people. If that is ALL that you are after. I can't treat you with the same respect that I treat myself and others.
Even if I wanted to
FrozenFire wrote:People's opinions are important
But you are above them all
That's why nobody is entering LDCs anymore
People enter just to WIN, not to have fun
People just go there to win
Because pleasing people is the only thing that matterd
Vesoralla wrote:People want that fame so badly sometimes
But does it matter in the end?
So I wanted to bring up something serious when it comes to LDing on here and LDCs. What was going on was I think 1018peter was saying he was going to be done LDing because he couldn't please people. So we filled in on what we thought and tried to help him keep designing. I think that's what started this discussion.
Anyway, I know there are a lot of us that want to be recognized in some form or fashion. I know we want to be worth something. Believe me, I know how that feels like. You want to make the "HARDEST LEVEL EVER" hoping to get people to be like "ohh man that's so cool! it really is hard! you're the best!" Or you enter an LDC hoping to win first place and get in the LDC Hall of Fame. Instead you get 9th, and you give up because you didn't win.
Honestly, does it really matter if you lost or does it matter that no one likes your level that much? Why do you want it so bad? Do you HAVE to have it? Why do you HAVE to have to get 1st place, or why do HAVE to have 5/5 stars; or why do you HAVE to get gold tier in the Hall of Fame? What's the point of all of that? I understand that those LDC medals look really cool and all, but do you HAVE to have one?
I saw I was 20th on the Hall of Fame. I didn't really like it because I thought gold tier looked better, but it really didn't matter to me too much. All that mattered was I became a better LDer than I was then even if I was ranked higher at the time I made Frost Glade, and I was still having fun.
That's what matters: are you having fun? Have fun just designing and not winning. You can design to win as like some kind of motivation, but don't let it be your primary goal. Your primary goal, I think, is to enjoy designing. When I made Grey Garden Station and Ardam, I thought they would be better than Frost Glade. They got 5th place instead of Frost Glade which got 1st. I still thought those two looked better and were designed better than Frost Glade.
LDCs are really meant to bring people together and kinda design levels together I guess. The thing about them is this:
~MP3 Amplifier~ wrote:Have fun, that's the most important part!
Even hosts will say this about LDCs.
I know you want people to like you, but LDing doesn't have to be the answer to your prayers for this. Personality matters more. If you lose an LDC and are okay about and move on, people will like you just as much, if not more, as if you would win.
I understand winning is so satisfying. Heck, I like to win. It makes me feel good about myself. That's fine. Winning is a good thing to experience. However, you should not take failure and success so seriously. That's the problem. Having a mentality of I'm going to win will set you up for failure. The same can be said for failure if all you think is you are going to lose no matter what. Balance it out a bit. Hope that you will win, but understand that you might not win.
How about this: Pie or Watermelon eating contests. Those are fun and insane and whatnot right? Does it matter if you won or lost those?
Here's what you do: if you win: learn why you won and improve that. If you lose: learn why you lost and fix that.
Here's what you don't do: If you win: act all proud, join the next LDC thinking you'll win no matter what again and not change a thing. If you lose: complain about it, give up, and not change a thing
Make levels to have fun okay? Look, I don't care if it doesn't get 5 stars, or it doesn't get 1st place, or it doesn't get a comment on it in like 30 seconds. Did you have fun making the level yes or no? That's all I care about.
I hope I got my point across. I better have. I don't want to see you guys being all negative about how your levels suck. I don't like it.
D-Don't make come over there and beat you. Don't tempt me. No, don't you dare. Ah-AH! No! You better not do it!! Nah, I'm kidding you guys
I'm not going to beat you or anything.But seriously I hope I was clear about this.
tl;dr Design your levels to have fun. Not to win. Winning sucks
Hope this helps
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Charcoal - Prophet of Shadowsquid
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
by MessengerOfDreams » December 5th, 2015, 9:30 am
I think my bigger fear is that there seems to be a concentrated effort to diminish and eventually wash out the SM63 LDC. We've had only two this year- one every six months- but staff I've talked to say only one should be allowed a year, maximum. Quite frankly, I think that's unfair, as I'm sure once LL picks up many LDCs will happen a year. I'm afraid that they're trying to kill the SM63 fanbase.
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MessengerOfDreams - Moderator
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
by Charcoal » December 5th, 2015, 9:46 am
MessengerOfDreams wrote:I think my bigger fear is that there seems to be a concentrated effort to diminish and eventually wash out the SM63 LDC. We've had only two this year- one every six months- but staff I've talked to say only one should be allowed a year, maximum. Quite frankly, I think that's unfair, as I'm sure once LL picks up many LDCs will happen a year. I'm afraid that they're trying to kill the SM63 fanbase.
That could be the case, but I addressed what was based on the chat and my point of view. I don't know what or where this LL triumphing over SM63 stuff is, but It sounds like it needs to stop.
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Charcoal - Prophet of Shadowsquid
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
Thumbs up x1
by Megar » December 5th, 2015, 2:47 pm
there just aren't enough LL contests for the people more comfortable using that than 63, like me
i couldn't care how often 63 ones are
but i just want more LL ones
i couldn't care how often 63 ones are
but i just want more LL ones
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Megar - Follower of Razputin
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
by Charcoal » December 5th, 2015, 3:09 pm
Megar wrote:there just aren't enough LL contests for the people more comfortable using that than 63, like me
i couldn't care how often 63 ones are
but i just want more LL ones
Well I hope more LDCs happen for LL. Maybe talk to a mod about it or something. Right now, let's focus on this matter concerning SM63.
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Charcoal - Prophet of Shadowsquid
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
by Raz » December 5th, 2015, 3:28 pm
Vesoralla wrote: Maybe talk to a mod about it or something.
Not our problem
Disclaimer: none of these messages have been edited, context can be provided if needed (thanks discord!) but absolutely does not change anything about these messages and that he's too overly defensive and cocky to make situations better
Karyete: I don't have anything to say to you, I've been deliberately trying to not offend you for years, actually, but apparently everything I say to you is wrong. You come across as so aggressive that you successfully intimidated me into not wanting to talk to you
Karyete: Seriously, what is your problem? And not only that, you fail to even acknowledge you might be in some wrong here.
Karyete: Oooh it's you? Hello. Feel free to drop this right now. You're going to make yourself look like an idiot.
Karyete: We don't want to hear your opinion at this stage.
Karyete: You're not getting any apology, especially after now.
Karyete: You can stay up on your high horse, continue to twist the truth and act like an absolute child all you want. I refuse to give respect to a man who right now is picking up a dropped argument because he simply cannot fathom the idea that he might be in the wrong.
Karyete: How pathetic
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
Thumbs up x1
by Oranjui » December 5th, 2015, 3:38 pm
Vesoralla wrote:Well I hope more LDCs happen for LL. Maybe talk to a mod about it or something. Right now, let's focus on this matter concerning SM63.
This kind of attitude bothers me, because you're responding with the exact same behaviour Moy talked about (which I'm personally not really noticing other than in a facetious manner anyway) except in the opposite direction. You're literally just brushing off LL entirely and not giving it a chance, when everything you said should apply to it, too.
I think Mega's point is that we can't focus on having fun if there isn't really any opportunity for us to do so. That's not to say we want to kill SM63 in order to promote LL--there's way too massive of an SM63 community for that to ever happen. But I mean, I personally don't really have much motivation to design stuff for these things outside of contests, so I'd like to see more contests in a medium that I'm actually comfortable with using. I've been working on a little something for the 30th LDC when I have spare time, but I don't feel like it's as fun as it could be for myself, and it turns into a sort of feedback loop where my motivation decreases even further because I know that my lack of motivation/effort/excitement will likely result in the finished product coming out poorly and not really scoring as well as it could have if I had actually enjoyed the process and put all of my effort and enthusiasm into it.
MessengerOfDreams wrote:but staff I've talked to say only one should be allowed a year, maximum.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't recall anyone ever saying this? (could continue discussion in staff chat or something)
EDIT: Nevermind, I see where you saw that. But that's literally only one person and you shouldn't be generalizing that.
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
by 1018peter » December 5th, 2015, 3:55 pm
Don't you realize that in LDCs we put up our levels for them to be judged?
It's like telling me to have fun doing exams.
Yes,I design to please people,for only their opinion matters.
Does it matter that I created my levels in my way? No. I can't use my own standards on my own levels,as I'm not the one who gets to judge it,without bias.
Why do the opinions matter? Because I want to improve,I want to change,I want to shine. I want my levels to be recognized as decent at least.
But look at now,I failed and failed,sinking below where I've started. I failed to improve,failed to change,and certainly darkened myself.
Maybe all this is doomed to happen from the moment I entered my first LDC,maybe all this is doomed to happen from the moment my level got judged,or maybe all this is doomed to happen when I get my first reply on my levels.
I can't have fun anymore,nor can I improve. Going any further would just send me to the abyss.
Just let me quit,alright?
It's like telling me to have fun doing exams.
Yes,I design to please people,for only their opinion matters.
Does it matter that I created my levels in my way? No. I can't use my own standards on my own levels,as I'm not the one who gets to judge it,without bias.
Why do the opinions matter? Because I want to improve,I want to change,I want to shine. I want my levels to be recognized as decent at least.
But look at now,I failed and failed,sinking below where I've started. I failed to improve,failed to change,and certainly darkened myself.
Maybe all this is doomed to happen from the moment I entered my first LDC,maybe all this is doomed to happen from the moment my level got judged,or maybe all this is doomed to happen when I get my first reply on my levels.
I can't have fun anymore,nor can I improve. Going any further would just send me to the abyss.
Just let me quit,alright?
Indefinite hiatus on Level Designing...
Check out my Art Thread!
Upcoming Levels: show
Art Topic!: show
Check out my Art Thread!
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
by ~MP3 Amplifier~ » December 5th, 2015, 4:26 pm
No-one can make you design. If you wanna quit, then quit. But think twice about reason behind it, that's all.
As for me, this is kinda why I wanted to remove myself from the tier list a while back, and tbh still haven't completely tossed away the idea of. I can't help but try to please people when I do something, even if it's something for myself, I really want to get a good reaction from people and get support and acceptance.
I don't level design for the approval of other people, I level design because I love it and it's an art form to me, a way of expression. But if I don't get the acceptance too I feel like no-one else can truly take the journey through my levels with me.
So for me, it's not so much about winning. It's just I want to create a world for people to explore and if they don't get it, it ruins the fun.
I do cater a lot to people's wants/needs, it's just part of who I am anyway. It would be great if I didn't care at all about people's opinions, but I can't help but care at least a little bit.
As for me, this is kinda why I wanted to remove myself from the tier list a while back, and tbh still haven't completely tossed away the idea of. I can't help but try to please people when I do something, even if it's something for myself, I really want to get a good reaction from people and get support and acceptance.
I don't level design for the approval of other people, I level design because I love it and it's an art form to me, a way of expression. But if I don't get the acceptance too I feel like no-one else can truly take the journey through my levels with me.
So for me, it's not so much about winning. It's just I want to create a world for people to explore and if they don't get it, it ruins the fun.
I do cater a lot to people's wants/needs, it's just part of who I am anyway. It would be great if I didn't care at all about people's opinions, but I can't help but care at least a little bit.
The below image is a montage of my individual highest placing LDC creations, as a reminder to myself that level designing is a part of my life that I can't just leave behind
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Re: Serious Talk about LDing and LDCs
Thumbs up x2
by Venexis » December 5th, 2015, 4:32 pm
There is nothing wrong with competing because competitions are fun
there's a fair bit wrong with competing just to get a big number, in my humble opinion at least
...and that concludes everything I want to say here
there's a fair bit wrong with competing just to get a big number, in my humble opinion at least
...and that concludes everything I want to say here
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