Official SM63 Judging System Discussion

[Supershroom]

We need judgings to be more factual. There was e.g. Volkove in the past who was known for "being a detailed judge with a critical eye, being able to find clear, unbiased praise and criticism in any level" (~MoD). That's what I'm orientating myself to, that's what we need to aim for. Stuff like innovation and hitting a theme is not everything by far and it shouldn't be overhyped. Technique must be well-executed first by any means, and I really don't think that someone should be scored high if they totally focus away from it. Concerning Yuri's level, I see the following flaws which normally justify the deduction of a couple of points, and it seemed like all of these suddenly didn't matter anymore just because his innovative concept was so overwhelming:

• Choosing your own door out of four without evidence, purely randomly.
• Narrow passages in the maze of invisible tiles and floating items being a bit overused.
• Being tricked in the bloss passage when you're tempted to hit the disabling switch (which forces you to go back) and then there are two arrows in opposite directions and you're disoriented.
• Walls of sleeping rooms aren't thick enough, you quickly look into the void when zooming out.
• The signs themselves lacking connectivity and being too mystic.

[~Yuri]

Well, I'm not willing to argue about this anymore, but there's one thing you overlooked:

• Choosing your own door out of four without evidence, purely randomly.

Read the signs in the room. It seems you just didn't get that puzzle :P

[Supershroom]

Nah okay. I want to express nevertheless that technical appeal and effort into technique should stay essential requirements to get a high score.

[l.m]

None of the points you stated would justify a lower score for Yuri's level; it's completely acceptable to take all of those design choices as merely intentional and stylistic (except for the third point, and even so it's still not enough to justify it), and it's not Yuri's or the judge's fault if you couldn't comprehend the puzzles in the signs either.

Thing is, I think despite all of the past works, all of the content created by many great designers before, despite all of the passion, the subjectivity put on every piece, you're still taking it as a simple old Super Mario level. And honestly you're not wrong for believing so - it's still a game, it's still Super Mario, you expect a straightforward pattern; however, the judges have simply taken the choice to not judge it simply as SM63 level - because they acknowledge there's a lot more than that. Heck, I even feel uncomfortable calling them levels, because they're straight up art pieces, experiences. LDing has become more than platforming or a bunch of trees placed around, and it's great, because it's just bland and boring if you just present people a bunch of superficial jumping challenges and expect them to finish them off, and sometimes it's frustrating even, because it's so precisely calculated to the point where only you and maybe a handful of people are able to complete it. There's a lot of stuff like this made in the past, it's not new, and it has become tiring.

You might not perceive it the way I, Yuri, or the other judges perceive, I don't expect that from you. I just want you to know that there is reasoning behind the high scores the judges gave Yuri. While you think technical appeal and effort should be essential requirements to get a high score, the judges decided to take atmosphere and experience as crucial aspects, because they didn't see it as just another challenge, another standardized platformer. You need to work out an experience around it, and you need to do it well. They understood the metaphor Yuri was trying to pass there, and they did understand there wasn't the need to add much more to help the message become even more clearer.

And that's exactly why we need to allow other judges to judge differently: because you think in a completely different manner other judges do, and you have a completely different perspective and approach on LDing. We need this diversity, we need to accept that we can't ever have 100% unbiased, factual, objective judgings, or else we are going to stay here forever arguing about how you are right and I am wrong, about how my opinion should be taken in consideration and how yours should be completely thrown in the trash - it's simply not worth it. Like LeMoD said: "There will be no objectivity as long as human beings are allowed to judge."

[Oranjui]

I would love to nitpick your (@Shroom) your arbitrary nitpickings again, but I pretty much exhausted all of my patience and energy on the subject already, and:
(1) This discussion/argument is going in circles, (2) neither party seems to be persuading the other to budge, (3) it's already been pretty much unofficially decided that nothing about the scoring system is ever going to be standardized or changed at this point (by both the will of the vast majority [i.e. everybody but Shroom; source, this entire ♥♥♥♥ thread. please read it] and staff members' opinions), (4) this thread has been completely derailed anyway, and because of point 3, it's far more likely than not that it won't be returning to the original topic of discussion, and (5) the only thing that seems to be happening by continuing the current discussion is that we're unnecessarily increasing frustration over this petty little argument.



In summary: Once upon a time, SM63 was a game. Nowadays, 7 years later, it's still a game, but the designing community sees it as far more than just that--it has evolved into a medium of art; it's become an extremely useful vehicle for conveying ideas that are meaningful to the authors; level don't have to just be part of a game, because they can be part of an experience. Judges and other designers, in large part, have adapted their outlook in response to this change in perspective, so judgings often focus on the subjective experiences of fun and meaning and emotion and beauty that they feel while playing levels, rather than just the bare basics. There's not much more to say other than that things change, and you can't expect others to live in the past with you.

The verdict: Just let the judges judge, and quit whining about it just because not everyone sees perfectly eye-to-eye; if you want to be a judge, to add your own subjective and personal voice to the mix, to express your own subjective and personal opinions about your experience playing people's levels, then sign up to be a judge next time, by all means. But you have zero reason or place to dispute the judges' reviews and bash Yuri's level in order to promote your own. Go leave your review of Yuri's level in his portal thread if you feel the desire to keep bickering about this, but please don't drag the argument to the chat or any other thread. Agree to disagree. We're done here.



I'm going to lock this thread unless a mod has something to say about it. I'm sick of reading this mess, and I can say for certain that at least a few specific others are, too.