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I voted for the current system, but if the overhaul does go through, I'd like to see the 10/10 split (not 12/8 or 15/10) and no restrictions on individual criteria. I'd rather stick to a system that emphasizes holistic judgings, not one that confines us to a rubric (i.e. forcing a greater emphasis on gameplay, limiting atmosphere/graphics to 8 points, limiting story to 1.5 points, limiting music choice to 1.5 points, limiting lag deductions to 1 point, subcategories in general).

Also:

Supershroom wrote:Just as you say that 12/8 would give advantage to the gameplay specialists, others actually say that 10/10 would give even more advantage to specialists on graphics and atmosphere. I'll consider putting another poll on that after this one

I don't understand your logic here. How is splitting the overall score evenly between the two categories giving an advantage to specialists in either one? Would you propose an 11/9 split to even out that advantage? (I'm not suggesting that's a good idea) I don't get what you're trying to prove by admitting that you're giving preference to gameplay specialists.

edit: The second paragraph of this post came out sounding a lot angrier than I actually am, so don't worry, I'm not really mad, just kind of confused

Graphics are arguably less important than gameplay. Your graphics could make grown men weep but it means nothing if the level itself is confusing, poorly balanced, or flat out impossible. You won't ever see how beautiful it is if you're incapable of progressing (gameplay).

I'm not denying the designer is an artistic medium, but it's a game first and foremost, not an art gallery. The primary draw of games is the ability to interact with it. It is logical that gameplay should be worth more points.

Graphics are still only 25% of the game. I don't see how it's fair that people who are game play oriented (which interestingly the rest of Shroom's rules tilt the table in favor of) should get two extra point advantages that will be stolen from graphics. It's rigging the system, blatantly.

In the 12-8 split they'd be 40% though.

I still don't really care what format is decided on, just want to comment that this is probably why people want more emphasis on gameplay. I mean, the fact that people make levels for others to play (as opposed to scrolling through the designer mode just looking at the level) kindof speaks for itself.

But didn't we agree that the 8 point section was where we were going to put stuff from Other like music and artistic themes? So therefore we are making it so that has less value, which is deliberate bias against those designers. It gives Shroom more points and MP3 less, basically. I don't know how this can be argued, fun gets a 60% share and graphics/other go from 50‰ to awkwardly sharing 40%. It's quite simply not fair and it's suspect that it comes from someone who thinks their skill is game play. But I shouldn't be surprised, ever since that alternative way of designing came out people were trying to penalize it.

While I don't mind doing a ten/ten split I think at the end of the day gameplay really is more important in the case of 63. In this case everything else does have less value because at core this is a medium for creating Marios, not telling huge stories and whatnot. The only real method of providing a functioning plot is through signs, which is just jarring and splits the action far too often if trying to tell a full story.

Yes, it's an alternative way of designing that has its place. But when the purpose is to create a level that people have fun running and jumping and stomping enemies in quite frankly I'm not here to read countless signs. I just want to stomp Goombas or something. If I'm looking for a tale I'll go read a book or something I find online. Not play a Mario game.

And accusing Shroom of tilting it in his favour is honestly just wrong. He's judging this based on what I'm fairly sure the majority finds to be more important.

Okay, guess I just gotta deal with finally being shoved out of the scene. I just don't think it's fair that people are outright okay with doing everything possible to punish a certain style including gaming the system. It's bad enough to prohibit judges from having certain opinions but changing the system so judges are forced to go with a new system that deliberately works against certain types of designers (you outright admit that you don't like levels with stories so you want them to have a harder time getting traction). It all comes back to the fear of "limiting designers on what they're allowed to design and making certain designers feel bad", a movement that started in 2012 and still continues to this day. If that's the road that we're going down, I refuse to sponsor it with my work.

No one's pushing you anywhere, and you're acting like everyone's out to get you. Yes, I concede that I'm not a fan of story-based levels. I never have been. You're allowed to make whatever the hell you feel like making regardless, but if you expect people to play along and give you all the points when the majority holds preference towards the other style of play then that's just simply wrong. No one is saying that story levels are a terrible, horrible thing - just that they prefer standard Mario fare. And because again, I am fairly sure that's the majority, it's only right that the points spread should reflect that. It's not like it's impossible to do well under those circumstances anyway. You yourself have proved that in a system focused on gameplay you can still emerge victorious, and I know you're fully aware of that. You also act as though you're completely incapable of doing gameplay, and in that case the difference between eight and ten points out of twenty is absolutely not going to net you victory.

The difference of two points isn't near as big as you're making it out to be. Say you accomplish all eight points in Atmosphere (which, knowing you, you'd have no problems whatsoever doing) but only acquire six points otherwise. That's still fourteen points, which is a respectable score and something anyone should be pleased with.

What should also be considered is how many points you can reasonably put into a certain category. Atmosphere can be put into smaller sections: plot and appearance/sound. Plot I really can't see being worth more than four points, as in the medium of 63 there's really not much you can do in the way of storytelling. Appearance and sound I can actually see being worth five like it has been ever since the whole LDC thing started, but that still reaches nine overall. Which would make it 11/9, still not even.

If you can make a point of why plot is just as important as anything else instead of going on about how we're out to get you, then I'll happily except it and be fine with the ten/ten system.

Megar wrote:Atmosphere can be put into smaller sections: plot and appearance/sound.

I guess it should be possible to carry out a similar division with Gameplay as well, given how gimmicks, glitches and game performance overall occasionally warrant being mentioned on the judgings.

Plus, wherever there's emphasis on the judgings being set, it won't be easy to reach a perfect score on that one criterion.

The judging system should be 10/10 because the atmosphere of a level matters. If the atmosphere is bad, then it affects the gameplay and the fun.

10/10 should be the new judging system.

Edit: I put so much effort into music, plot, and graphics in my recent level in the 5th 25 squared LDC that it turned out terrible. Why did I do that? Because I KNOW the atmosphere matters.

Double Edit: Plot doesn't necessarily have to be something required in a level, but if the level designer includes it and the judge likes it, then the judge should be able to add a few points to atmosphere for that.